Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

KevinSim wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:48 am
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:58 pm
KS,

Can you flesh out the highlighted bit, because it appears to be a de facto contradiction.

- Doc
Doc, God for me is the forever preserver. If there is no forever preserver, then the human race will not last forever. That means there will be a last generation of the human race. That generation will consist of real people, with hopes and dreams like you and me, Doc. What is your conscientious obligation to the real people of that last generation? I think it is to make sure that generation never happens, which means we need to find out how to forever preserve, which means we need God.
You literally didn’t address the highlighted portion and my subsequent statement. Are you just doing your usual skimming thing and then proselytizing thing you do, MG? Stop being deceitful and interacting in bad faith.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Res Ipsa »

KevinSim wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:48 am
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:58 pm
KS,

Can you flesh out the highlighted bit, because it appears to be a de facto contradiction.

- Doc
Doc, God for me is the forever preserver. If there is no forever preserver, then the human race will not last forever. That means there will be a last generation of the human race. That generation will consist of real people, with hopes and dreams like you and me, Doc. What is your conscientious obligation to the real people of that last generation? I think it is to make sure that generation never happens, which means we need to find out how to forever preserve, which means we need God.
I can’t understand how the conclusion logically follows from the premises. Suppose we assume that God the forever preserver of some good thing. Take a look at the new photos from the JWST. Given the vastness of the universe, what reason would we have to believe that homo sapiens are the only good thing that exists, let alone the one good thing that God has chosen to preserve?

If God exists and wants to preserve human life forever, what’s stopping him? More specifically, what specifically is it that I must do that would enable God to accomplish the stated goal? In essence, how is it that I hold the ultimate power over God?

If your God does not exist, then I think it becomes unnecessary to the the stated goal. I haven’t the faintest idea whether any given action I take would either bring about or hinder humanity existing forever. The best I could do is as suggested by Meadowchick: take the existence, health, and well being of the next generation into account in my own decision making. After I’m gone, continuance off the human race is in the hands of the living. No God necessary.

Finally, that we “need” your God says nothing about its existence. Likewise with anyone’s belief that such an entity exists, let alone necessarily exists.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Fence Sitter »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:42 pm
I can’t understand how the conclusion logically follows from the premises. Suppose we assume that God the forever preserver of some good thing. Take a look at the new photos from the JWST. Given the vastness of the universe, what reason would we have to believe that homo sapiens are the only good thing that exists, let alone the one good thing that God has chosen to preserve?

If God exists and wants to preserve human life forever, what’s stopping him? More specifically, what specifically is it that I must do that would enable God to accomplish the stated goal? In essence, how is it that I hold the ultimate power over God?

If your God does not exist, then I think it becomes unnecessary to the the stated goal. I haven’t the faintest idea whether any given action I take would either bring about or hinder humanity existing forever. The best I could do is as suggested by Meadowchick: take the existence, health, and well being of the next generation into account in my own decision making. After I’m gone, continuance off the human race is in the hands of the living. No God necessary.

Finally, that we “need” your God says nothing about its existence. Likewise with anyone’s belief that such an entity exists, let alone necessarily exists.
His conclusions are where he starts. All of his claims are based on humanity being the focal point of the universe, and I don't believe he understands that. He uses terms like 'God", "good things", "preserves" and "forever" as if there is only one way to interpret or apply them. His reasoning really boils down to the fact that cannot imagine how the universe does not revolve around him. The JWST photos are great examples of how insignificant this earth is and those creatures that inhabit it, even more so. When one considers the trillions of stars and planets there are in the universe, expecting the one we live on to be the focal point of God (if there is one) is pure hubris. What is it about the human race that demands it be preserved? Looking at our violent history, It's a pretty sad belief that holds we are the pinnacle of what needs to exist.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

IHAQ wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:43 am
I believe pigs can fly, you do not. If you think things through you will realise that in the absence of flying pigs you have an obligation to produce a flying pig. If you’re conscientious you will try. Maybe I’m wrong about you, maybe you will produce a flying pig, but I think it’s more likely you won’t bother and will return to being pessimistic about pigs flying. However, failing to produce a flying pig validates my position that pigs can fly.
IHAQ, I never said failing to produce God validates my position that God exists.
IHAQ wrote:The onus is on you to produce your God, as you’re the believer.
You're right that I am a believer. Why does that mean that the onus is on me?
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

Meadowchik wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:27 pm
In fact, I don't think humanity as a whole will transition away from theism without a safe alternative.
Some really interesting stuff here, Meadowchik.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:39 pm
I don't understand why you claim that "humans need God," so I'd like to see the argument behind that.
God for me is someone who knows how to preserve forever some good things. Without such a being, humanity is going to eventually completely die out, like every other form of life that has ever existed is going to die out. I think humanity needs to find some lasting difference between its contribution to the universe and the contribution of every other form of life. It just really strikes me as ironic that the one species that came up with the idea of forever might never produce anything good that will last forever.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

IHAQ wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:40 pm
I think the analogy is exactly the same. Kevin wants all atheists (remember, if they don’t do what Kevin has determined they need to do then they are all “lazy learners”) to prove God doesn’t exist by showing that God exists. It’s a bonkers position.
IHAQ, when have I ever said anything about "lazy learners" or wanting atheists to prove God doesn't exist?
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

Meadowchik wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:28 pm
All moral people need to build a way for humanity to function without theism because we must find a theistic-neutral path in order to maintain religious freedom for us all, atheists and theists alike.
Meadowchik, I really like this stuff. I think you've got some good points here.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Rivendale »

KevinSim wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:20 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:39 pm
I don't understand why you claim that "humans need God," so I'd like to see the argument behind that.
God for me is someone who knows how to preserve forever some good things. Without such a being, humanity is going to eventually completely die out, like every other form of life that has ever existed is going to die out. I think humanity needs to find some lasting difference between its contribution to the universe and the contribution of every other form of life. It just really strikes me as ironic that the one species that came up with the idea of forever might never produce anything good that will last forever.
99.9 % of all living things on Earth have gone extinct. Do you think they are lesser? And how do you know they don't have a concept of forever?
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:38 pm
Kevin, you’re in a bit of a pickle.
Well, yeah. But the truth of the matter is that Joseph Fielding Smith here is going against what Heber Grant decided, which was that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't have a position on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory. So who do you believe, Grant or Smith? I choose Grant.
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