Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

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Marcus
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Marcus »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:42 pm
KevinSim wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:25 pm

Wow, you guys are harsh. I made a mistake about the quotes I included in a previous post and got called a dishonest poster. Here, Doc, I apparently misunderstood what you meant by fleshing out two things I previously said, and you called me deceitful and said I was interacting in bad faith. There doesn't seem to be much room for error in this forum.
I made two statements about the need, in the absence of God, to produce God, and Doc, you asked me to flesh them out. What exactly did you mean by that, if my responses didn't answer your question?
More game playing by MG. :roll:

WoW yOu GuYs ArE sUcH a MyStErY tO a PoStEr LiKe MySeLf!

- Doc
:lol: too funny. and the mystery poster STILL managed to NOT explain what they meant by the pink part of this post from PAGE EIGHTEEN:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:58 pm
KevinSim wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:01 am
…The simple fact is that humanity needs God. If, as atheists assert, there is no deity in control of this universe, then it becomes those atheists' conscientious obligation to produce one. If atheists have thought things through and are yet not pessimists, then that means they must have found a way to produce such a deity, which would surprise me very much. So if you can explain to me how they have discovered how to produce God, I will admit that I am wrong and that my statement is insupportable.
KS,

Can you flesh out the highlighted bit, because it appears to be a de facto contradiction.

- Doc
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Marcus wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:57 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:42 pm


More game playing by MG. :roll:

WoW yOu GuYs ArE sUcH a MyStErY tO a PoStEr LiKe MySeLf!

- Doc
:lol: too funny. and the mystery poster STILL managed to NOT explain what they meant by the pink part of this post from PAGE EIGHTEEN:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:58 pm


KS,

Can you flesh out the highlighted bit, because it appears to be a de facto contradiction.

- Doc
MG when participating on the board:

Image

Words. What do they even mean??? Quote button. What even is that?!? Answering questions. What language do these mysterious people even talk?!?!

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

(Deleted duplicate. )
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:24 pm
His conclusions are where he starts. All of his claims are based on humanity being the focal point of the universe, and I don't believe he understands that.
Fence Sitter, when have I ever said that humanity is the focal point of the universe?
Fence Sitter wrote:He uses terms like 'God", "good things", "preserves" and "forever" as if there is only one way to interpret or apply them.
Feel free to educate me otherwise, Fence Sitter. I'll listen to you.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Res Ipsa »

KevinSim wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:45 pm

Meadowchik, are you planning on dying young, or do you think there's a good chance that you'll live to be old enough to take advantage of society's provision of special resources for the elderly? Resources provided by younger people for older people? Resources that last generation won't have? If you do live long enough to take advantage of those services, can you live with yourself by using those services knowing that future generation won't have access to them? Society is sort of a pyramid scheme. With most pyramid schemes a small group's wealth is built on the back of a lot of people who get screwed. With the society I speak of there isn't quite the imbalance, but the people at then still get screwed. I think we owe it to them to make sure that last generation doesn't happen, and that means preserving the human race forever, and that means God.
Well, that’s put together a little better. But I still don’t see an actual argument that starts with a premise I would accept and flows in a logically valid way that ends with “therefore, I, as an atheist, have a [moral] obligation to invent God [as defined by KevinSim.

I think you’re intermingling two different ideas in a way that doesn’t make sense. One is accumulation of wealth. The other is the nature of moral obligations between generations.
The two aren’t necessarily related, and you haven’t explained how you think they are.

But there’s clearly a piece of your thinking you haven’t shared with us: what you called “the society I speak of.” I’m guessing you have a whole theory of how to construct a society that avoids the whole pyramid scheme/people getting screwed over by the rich. Maybe I missed where you laid that out. But, your system has a problem: The last generation, whenever that is, still gets screwed. So, Deux ex Mechanica, you just imagine a God to take care of your problem. It’s not that humanity needs God — it’s that you need God to make your notion of society consistent with your own ethical standards.

None of that says anything about whether there is a Gods you’ve defined it. Or whether humans can create such a being. Or whether it is possible at all for the human race continue forever. All it says is that you wish such a good existed so that your vision of society will work to type satisfaction.

But your wish doesn’t obligate anyone to do anything to make your wish come true. Even you.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Meadowchik »

KevinSim wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:45 pm
Meadowchik, are you planning on dying young, or do you think there's a good chance that you'll live to be old enough to take advantage of society's provision of special resources for the elderly? Resources provided by younger people for older people? Resources that last generation won't have? If you do live long enough to take advantage of those services, can you live with yourself by using those services knowing that future generation won't have access to them? Society is sort of a pyramid scheme. With most pyramid schemes a small group's wealth is built on the back of a lot of people who get screwed. With the society I speak of there isn't quite the imbalance, but the people at then still get screwed. I think we owe it to them to make sure that last generation doesn't happen, and that means preserving the human race forever, and that means God.
I'm not convinced by your conclusion that "that means God," which seems forced rather than reasonable.

Furthermore I think we can argue that creating God or relying on God is actually counterproductive to ensuring the survival of humanity.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Fence Sitter »

Meadowchik wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:16 pm
I'm not convinced by your conclusion that "that means God," which seems forced rather than reasonable.
His "reasoning" can be stated like this:

"In order to preserve Barbie and Ken dolls forever, Santa Claus must exist".
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Res Ipsa »

Using the principle of maximum charity, I'd frame my understanding of what KevinSim is saying like this:

The way human society is currently organized is immoral and unethical. A few people get rich on the backs of millions of poor. It's like a pyramid scheme, as more and more poor are needed to sustain the few at the top. It's harmful and unsustainable. A similar situation exists between generations. Each generation consumes resources, making them unavailable to the next. At the same time, each generation expects the next to sustain them in the later years of life. It's another pyramid scheme, as each generation needs to be bigger to sustain the burden of supporting the previous generation.

There is a way [maybe multiple ways] we could change the structure of human society to eliminate these immoral and unethical issues. Creation of a moral and ethical society would be an unambiguously good thing. But there's one problem: someone will be the last generation. And there is no system that can provide for the moral and ethical treatment of that last generation. The only solution is to eliminate the last generation. That requires humanity to exist forever.

But how do we do that? The world has finite resources. The universe has finite resources. And there's no guarantee that humanity can survive until the universe's resources are exhausted. Any number of other things could extinguish humanity, including climate change, disease, etc. We should feel a moral obligation to create the good thing that is a moral and ethical human society. And that necessarily gives us a moral obligation to that last generation that we cannot fulfill without something that knows how to keep humanity alive forever. That's how I think of God -- whatever it is that knows how to preserve the good thing that is a moral and ethical human society by making sure there is no last generation. Beyond that, I have no fixed definition of God: the thing that knows how to preserve some good thing forever. We need that God in order to fulfill a moral duty to create a moral and ethical human society. And if there is no such God presently, we have a moral obligation to create one.

I'm not saying I agree with the argument. But if I try my bestest to understand what KevinSim is talking about, that's what I get.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by IHAQ »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:10 pm
Using the principle of maximum charity, I'd frame my understanding of what KevinSim is saying like this:

The way human society is currently organized is immoral and unethical. A few people get rich on the backs of millions of poor. It's like a pyramid scheme, as more and more poor are needed to sustain the few at the top. It's harmful and unsustainable. A similar situation exists between generations. Each generation consumes resources, making them unavailable to the next. At the same time, each generation expects the next to sustain them in the later years of life. It's another pyramid scheme, as each generation needs to be bigger to sustain the burden of supporting the previous generation.

There is a way [maybe multiple ways] we could change the structure of human society to eliminate these immoral and unethical issues. Creation of a moral and ethical society would be an unambiguously good thing. But there's one problem: someone will be the last generation. And there is no system that can provide for the moral and ethical treatment of that last generation. The only solution is to eliminate the last generation. That requires humanity to exist forever.

But how do we do that? The world has finite resources. The universe has finite resources. And there's no guarantee that humanity can survive until the universe's resources are exhausted. Any number of other things could extinguish humanity, including climate change, disease, etc. We should feel a moral obligation to create the good thing that is a moral and ethical human society. And that necessarily gives us a moral obligation to that last generation that we cannot fulfill without something that knows how to keep humanity alive forever. That's how I think of God -- whatever it is that knows how to preserve the good thing that is a moral and ethical human society by making sure there is no last generation. Beyond that, I have no fixed definition of God: the thing that knows how to preserve some good thing forever. We need that God in order to fulfill a moral duty to create a moral and ethical human society. And if there is no such God presently, we have a moral obligation to create one.

I'm not saying I agree with the argument. But if I try my bestest to understand what KevinSim is talking about, that's what I get.
The other fly in the Kevin’s ointment, is that he’s chosen to follow a God/religion that believes in the end of days. A God that requires earthly humanity to have a finite end so that the next lives can be assigned to one of a number of eternal kingdoms (which in itself is a pyramid). The doctrine of his chosen religion doesn’t support his position of earthly humanity continuing forever. Plus you need to take into consideration that for every “good thing” there are consequences - for instance one cannot preserve the good of families without also preserving in-family rivalries etc.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Res Ipsa »

IHAQ wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:51 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:10 pm
Using the principle of maximum charity, I'd frame my understanding of what KevinSim is saying like this:

The way human society is currently organized is immoral and unethical. A few people get rich on the backs of millions of poor. It's like a pyramid scheme, as more and more poor are needed to sustain the few at the top. It's harmful and unsustainable. A similar situation exists between generations. Each generation consumes resources, making them unavailable to the next. At the same time, each generation expects the next to sustain them in the later years of life. It's another pyramid scheme, as each generation needs to be bigger to sustain the burden of supporting the previous generation.

There is a way [maybe multiple ways] we could change the structure of human society to eliminate these immoral and unethical issues. Creation of a moral and ethical society would be an unambiguously good thing. But there's one problem: someone will be the last generation. And there is no system that can provide for the moral and ethical treatment of that last generation. The only solution is to eliminate the last generation. That requires humanity to exist forever.

But how do we do that? The world has finite resources. The universe has finite resources. And there's no guarantee that humanity can survive until the universe's resources are exhausted. Any number of other things could extinguish humanity, including climate change, disease, etc. We should feel a moral obligation to create the good thing that is a moral and ethical human society. And that necessarily gives us a moral obligation to that last generation that we cannot fulfill without something that knows how to keep humanity alive forever. That's how I think of God -- whatever it is that knows how to preserve the good thing that is a moral and ethical human society by making sure there is no last generation. Beyond that, I have no fixed definition of God: the thing that knows how to preserve some good thing forever. We need that God in order to fulfill a moral duty to create a moral and ethical human society. And if there is no such God presently, we have a moral obligation to create one.

I'm not saying I agree with the argument. But if I try my bestest to understand what KevinSim is talking about, that's what I get.
The other fly in the Kevin’s ointment, is that he’s chosen to follow a God/religion that believes in the end of days. A God that requires earthly humanity to have a finite end so that the next lives can be assigned to one of a number of eternal kingdoms. The doctrine of his chosen religion doesn’t support his position of earthly humanity continuing forever.

That’s all before you take into consideration that for every “good thing” there are consequences - for instance one cannot preserve the good of families without also preserving in-family rivalries etc.
Oh, sure. I think there are lots of flies in the ointment. I just wanted to first understand the ointment. But I'm very unclear as to how much of LDS theology KevinSim subscribes to. I limited my presentation of what I think he's arguing to mortal, human existence. It's possible that he views what LDS folks call "eternal life" as God's knowledge of how to preserve some good thing. I don't know, as I've had little success in coaxing him to fill in some of the blanks.

And, yes, I suspect you and I could spend hours deconstructing concepts like "good thing." That's an important counterargument you'd flagged.
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