Book of Mormon Geography

[Shulem]

Our beloved Dan Vogel just released a second installment podcast about Joseph Smith’s early days involving treasure digging, pirate lore, gold plates, and more. The Susquehanna River played a prominent role in Smith’s geographical interest and reference and it’s that very river in which Captain Kidd sailed and buried treasure. It’s important to understand that the 1825 Joseph had already established basic precedent and geography for the novel in which he planned to produce in reference to the ancient inhabitants of America. In 1825, young Joseph had already determined that he was not going to endorse existing ideas about how the Ten Tribes of Israel came to America via a far north land bridge. Joseph had his own ideas! He wanted to introduce a tribe of Israel into America by making an ocean voyage across the same seas in which Captain Kidd sailed. He even elected to use names from treasured islands near Madagascar and would incorporate them secretly into his book. All of that was his secret. In addition, the very land in which the Israelites would sail to would remain a secret as it were. Indeed, it’s the 1825 Joseph that had already established the idea that the Susquehanna River would be included in his novel and that slippery treasures and pirate lore of his own making would cook its way into his book.

[Moksha]

Indeed, it’s the 1825 Joseph that had already established the idea that the Susquehanna River would be included in his novel and that slippery treasures and pirate lore of his own making would cook its way into his book.

Heap powerful were the Treasure Guardians which could thwart Joseph's own digs prior to angelic visitations.

So has Dan Vogel now seen the significance of the Susquehanna River on the voyages of Hagoth?

[Zosimus]

Really? Is that so?

Chapter and verse, please. Let us look at the text that you think supports this skewed and backward position provided by LDS apologists!

Rest assured, I have text which fully supports my position. I can show you HOW the apologists have been misreading text that reveals exactly what Smith was looking at on the map with regard to Sidon.

It will be easier to start with what we agree on.

Setting aside the statement in Alma 22:29 that the "Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites", do you agree that the Land of Zarahemla was north of the the Land of Nephi, and that in Alma 22 the Nephites generally occupied the area north of the Lamanite territory?

[Shulem]

Setting aside the statement in Alma 22:29 that the "Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites", do you agree that the Land of Zarahemla was north of the the Land of Nephi, and that in Alma 22 the Nephites generally occupied the area north of the Lamanite territory?

For the most part, YES.

Although the Nephites in territorial Zarahemla were surrounded by Lamanites during war campaigns when territory was lost and incursion into their land forced the Nephites to reassemble and deal with being confronted and surrounded by the enemy -- the land of Nephi (on the map) was an eastern & southern territory in relation to Zarahemla. The territory and city of Zarahemla is north of most of the land of Nephi which lies to the east and south being separated by the river Sidon. Sidon virtually separates the land of Zarahemla from upper land of Nephi. Sidon is a major feature in separating Zarahemla from the land of upper Nephi. The land of Nephi was a long strip of land whereon upper Nephi was to the north and lower Nephi to the south where Lehi landed.

The land of Nephi was nearly surrounded by water from the sea east, sea west, and sea south. Going north was like going down into the land and into the continent. The sense of elevation is not literally a factor but is added to the story for special effect and to give the sense that Lehi's cradle or land is the upmost region at the end of the southern line. Everything else goes down -- north into the continent. Hence, the land of Nephi is at the end of the peninsula. Thus the land of Nephi was a southern land and Zarahemla was a little north but to go north was to go down from the original cradle in which Lehi founded. Here is a little of the narrative:

"flee out of the land of Nephi . . . until they came down into the land which is called the land of Zarahemla" . . . (bones lay scattered in the land northward)

Lehi landed on the southern tip of the Delmarva peninsula which is also the State of Virginia. That is the beginning of the promised land according to the Book of Mormon covenant made to Nephi. I can explain all the geography to you so that you may understand. But first, the southern tip of the peninsula is where Lehi landed and where they planted all their seeds and began to colonize. Later, Nephi took his band with him and wandered a little northward inside the narrow strip or tail for the space of many days and began his own colony apart from Laman & Lemuel. That colony was also on that narrow strip of land which looks like a tail leading up to the first river that empties into the Chesapeake Bay. The long tail of land adjoins the southern narrow strip and is THE LAND OF NEPHI. The first river is Sidon. The main branch of the Sidon river runs mostly south into the the west sea. That river divides the land of Nephi from the land of Zarahemla located on the other side to the west. Hence, the land east of the river is the land of Nephi and Zarahemla is on the other side of the river. It was the long and narrow strip and river that separated the two lands. The coastal passage to the east led to the coastal city of Moroni or into Manti and ultimately Zarahemla.

Thus, Zarahemla was north of the land of Nephi or down into the peninsula from that perspective because Lehi's landing was the cradle and there was nothing south from that point other than the ocean itself. Therefore, going down from the land of Nephi along the narrow strip which was separated by Sidon and Sea East was the only way to gain access by foot into Zarahemla and the adjoining lands.

Gone down into the main body of the land is a terminology that I believe Smith adopted due to the nature of the tail as it relates to the rest of the land northward. Yeah, I know, it seems a bit of a contradiction and a sticky point but that's how I see it. The tail south is the land of Nephi. Everything and all roads from there go northward.

It's very possible also that Smith may have alluded to elevation as part of the "up" and "down" with regards to the land of Nephi and how it relates to the rest of the peninsula but the map doesn't give indication of elevation so either Smith interpreted the elevation that way at the southern tip of the peninsula or he invented that aspect to reflect elevation. But the bottom line is that the tip was the birth place or cradle in which Lehi landed and there was nowhere else to go but northward -- ever onward and it was termed "down" in the text. But that terminology is debatable for reasons stated earlier.

1. Your arrow points to where Lehi first landed and they established the first colony.

2. Then, Nephi split and went a little further north in the tail of Virginia and established the Land of Nephi.

3. Later we read about Zarahemla further north on the other side of the river which is about midpoint up the peninsula.

4. Further north of that is Bountiful which is just below the narrow neck.

That's the ABS's of the Book of Mormon!

The *LAND* of Zarahemla is WEST of the river Sidon and the city is somewhere, anywhere, whatever you prefer most -- in or about the center of the landmass. It's not an exact science. But it's important to differentiate between the LAND of Zarahemla and the CITY of Zarahemla.

Maybe at some point I'll do a more detailed map if people are interested. But if I do, I don't want my map to be any more detailed than the one Joseph was imagining when he told his story. Being in synch with Smith is my upmost desire in matters concerning his geography.




Zarahemla is north and west of the other side of the river Sidon

See how they “flee out of the land of Nephi” going northward and then “through the wilderness” before hooking around the Sidon River until “they came down” southward into the land of Zarahemla.




See how they “went up” going northward into the wilderness before hooking around the Sidon River to return to the land of Nephi.




See how they “came down out of the land of Nephi” AFTER going around the bend and then south, “DOWN” into Zarahemla.

See how they “went up” going northward into the wilderness before hooking around the Sidon River to return to the land of Nephi.

Here is another example to support the above narrative:

AND now, it came to pass that after king Mosiah had had continual peace for the space of three years, he was desirous to know concerning the people who went up to dwell in the land of Lehi-Nephi, or in the city of Lehi-Nephi; for his people had heard nothing from them from the time they left the land of Zarahemla; therefore, they wearied him with their teasings.

And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted that sixteen of their strong men might go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi, to inquire concerning their brethren.

And it came to pass that on the morrow they started to go up, having with them one Ammon, he being a strong and mighty man, and a descendant of Zarahemla; and he was also their leader.

And now, they knew not the course they should travel in the wilderness to go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi; therefore they wandered many days in the wilderness, even forty days did they wander.

And when they had wandered forty days they came to a hill, which is north of the land of Shilom, and there they pitched their tents.

And Ammon took three of his brethren, and their names were Amaleki, Helem, and Hem, and they went down into the land of Nephi.

And behold, they met the king of the people who were in the land of Nephi, and in the land of Shilom; and they were surrounded by the king’s guard, and were taken, and were bound, and were committed to prison.

And it came to pass when they had been in prison two days they were again brought before the king, and their bands were loosed; and they stood before the king, and were permitted, or rather commanded, that they should answer the questions which he should ask them.

And he said unto them: Behold, I am Limhi, the son of Noah, who was the son of Zeniff, who came up out of the land of Zarahemla to inherit this land, which was the land of their fathers, who was made a king by the voice of the people.

Etc, etc.

[Shulem]

It will be easier to start with what we agree on.

I totally agree. I think there is a lot we can agree on.

[Zosimus]

Here is another example to support the above narrative:

The mentions of "going up" that you don't highlight show that using Delmarva as a template would have resulted in very different storylines in the Book of Mormon. For example:

"And now, they knew not the course they should travel in the wilderness to go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi; therefore they wandered many days in the wilderness, even forty days did they wander."

How could it be possible that they would get lost for forty days if all they had to do was go up alongside the river, hook around it, and then go down the other side? Then there's the next verse in Omni:

"28 Wherefore, they went up into the wilderness. And their leader being a strong and mighty man, and a stiffnecked man, wherefore he caused a contention among them; and they were all slain, save fifty, in the wilderness, and they returned again to the land of Zarahemla."

That reads as if by going up into the wilderness they had left the land of Zarahemla and were in the Land of Nephi.

[Moksha]

Did you know that the Susquehanna is the longest river on the American east coast? Both Hagoth and Captain Kidd were wise in choosing this river for their expeditions.

[Zosimus]

Did you know that the Susquehanna is the longest river on the American east coast? Both Hagoth and Captain Kidd were wise in choosing this river for their expeditions.

"And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built other ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward. And it came to pass that they were never heard of more. And we suppose that they were drowned in the depths of the sea. And it came to pass that one other ship also did sail forth; and whither she did go we know not."

If Hagoth's ships had sailed up the Susquehanna, I doubt Smith would have chosen the wording "drowned in the depths of the sea." And if a ship sailed up a river, it'd be pretty easy to know "whither she did go".

Apart from a (too narrow) narrow neck of land, I'm not seeing much else in the Book of Mormon that looks like Delmarva.

[Laman Knight]

Did you know that the Susquehanna is the longest river on the American east coast? Both Hagoth and Captain Kidd were wise in choosing this river for their expeditions.

"And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built other ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward. And it came to pass that they were never heard of more. And we suppose that they were drowned in the depths of the sea. And it came to pass that one other ship also did sail forth; and whither she did go we know not."

If Hagoth's ships had sailed up the Susquehanna, I doubt Smith would have chosen the wording "drowned in the depths of the sea." And if a ship sailed up a river, it'd be pretty easy to know "whither she did go".

Apart from a (too narrow) narrow neck of land, I'm not seeing much else in the Book of Mormon that looks like Delmarva.

Indeed!

[Moksha]

If Hagoth's ships had sailed up the Susquehanna, I doubt Smith would have chosen the wording "drowned in the depths of the sea." And if a ship sailed up a river, it'd be pretty easy to know "whither she did go".

Speculative fiction does not always strive for exacting accuracy. Not sure I would book passage on the third voyage if the passengers of the second voyage were never heard from again, even if I was seeking the gold of El Dorado.