Book of Mormon Geography

[Zosimus]

You know what I doubt? I doubt Joseph Smith would have chosen the word “into” to describe how Hagoth (Alma 63:5) set sail “into” the northern land unless he was referring to going up river.

5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

Alma 63:5 is not saying the ship sailed into the Land Northward.

The first instance of the word into is referring to the ship going into the sea, the second instance (the one you are referring to) is explaining how the narrow neck of land led into the Land Northward.

[Shulem]

You know what I doubt? I doubt Joseph Smith would have chosen the word “into” to describe how Hagoth (Alma 63:5) set sail “into” the northern land unless he was referring to going up river.

5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

Alma 63:5 is not saying the ship sailed into the Land Northward.

Zosimus,

I’m reading into the text exactly what I believe Joseph Smith visualized and thus dictated. So, it doesn’t say that they set sail into the land northward? Recall how Nephi said, “we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land.” Had he not included that word would you object to the idea that he traversed the ocean by means of a sail? And how do you think Hagoth and those who went “into” the land northward got there if they did not sail? Did they paddle? Were they Jaredite barges blown by the wind? I don’t think so.

The text and storyline tells us exactly how they managed to go “into the land northward”:

And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward. And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions, and also many women and children; and they took their course northward. And thus ended the thirty and seventh year.

Thus, they took their course northward by means of a sail. That is the obvious conclusion.

• “And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions”

• “And it came to pass that one other ship also did sail forth; and whither she did go we know not. And it came to pass that in this year there were many people who went forth into the land northward.”

[Shulem]

The first instance of the word into is referring to the ship going into the sea, the second instance (the one you are referring to) is explaining how the narrow neck of land led into the Land Northward.

Indeed, the ship went into the sea to take a northward course and likewise the narrow neck goes into the land northward. They set sail “and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.” There are two ways specifically mentioned in the text on how to go into the land northward:

1. Narrow neck
2. River via West Sea

[Laman Knight]

Indeed!

Laman Knight,

Would you care to show me on the map where Joseph was looking at a narrow neck and demonstrate using the text how it all comes together?

Indeed, I would love to analyze a narrow neck which you think better describes what is in the Book of Mormon.

Here's a good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqEBrkf71Ws

[Shulem]

Here's a good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqEBrkf71Ws

I can look at that and I will. But I much prefer you explain things in your own words and use the text of the Book of Mormon to back up what you are saying. I would like to think we are having an actual conversation in which you can engage me and I likewise.

I will look at that little presentation soon enough.

[Shulem]

Laman Knight,

Would you care to show me on the map where Joseph was looking at a narrow neck and demonstrate using the text how it all comes together?

Indeed, I would love to analyze a narrow neck which you think better describes what is in the Book of Mormon.

Here's a good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqEBrkf71Ws

Okay, let’s look at the positives:

[✓] Peninsula
[✓] Narrow neck 1 day wide
[✓] Sea South
[✓] Sea North
[✓] Sea West
[✓] Sea East


Now the negatives:

First, the neck is TOO LONG. We are informed in the text of the Book of Mormon that the length of the *NECK* is only one and a half days long between the boundaries of Bountiful and Desolation. The Asian model is far too long to be considered a possibility. Of course you are obviously aware that objections for this model are that it’s not in the promised land where the white and delightsome Europeans would settle and persecute the Lamanites therein. You are also aware that Moroni (Joseph Smith) made it absolutely clear that the events that took place in the Book of Mormon occurred on *THIS* continent which is the American continent on which the plates were buried. There is zero possibility that this model is what Joseph Smith envisioned and wrote about in his Book of Mormon stories.

I won’t even begin to discuss it further or see any need to find additional fault in this model. Sorry, it’s simply DOA out of the starting gate.

[Shulem]

Alma 63:5 is not saying the ship sailed into the Land Northward.

Zosimus,

We can argue about semantics and interpretation. You do have a point. My interpretation is based more on collective reasoning and interpreting what the text infers based on what Smith was seeing on his map. I agree that the text does not specifically say they went into the land northward via a river. To me, it’s implied by the text based on the obvious map in which Smith utilized. It’s the only possible explanation for the Delmarva model and it works. With that said, the text does not say they did NOT go forth into the land northward by way of river. I realize this is a weak fallback on my part but it is worth noting, nonetheless. The text stresses two points with regard to seafaring off the west bay of the narrow neck. The narrow neck was said to run concurrently with seas east and sea west which connected the peninsula to Desolation and the land northward. The point is that people in that year went northward via land and sea in which it is described in general terms. Ships left and came back and I believe Smith saw the river as the main course in which they traveled over water the same as Captain Kidd when he sailed up to bury his treasure.

1. They launched
2. They enter therein

5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

6 And behold, there were many of the Nephites who did enter therein and did sail forth with much provisions, and also many women and children; and they took their course northward. And thus ended the thirty and seventh year.

7 And in the thirty and eighth year, this man built other ships. And the first ship did also return, and many more people did enter into it; and they also took much provisions, and set out again to the land northward.

8 And it came to pass that they were never heard of more. And we suppose that they were drowned in the depths of the sea. And it came to pass that one other ship also did sail forth; and whither she did go we know not.

9 And it came to pass that in this year there were many people who went forth into the land northward. And thus ended the thirty and eighth year.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Vogel’s recent podcast interview (Aug 31, 2022) mentions Captain Kidd’s alleged treasure in association to Joseph Smith’s treasure digging. Thus, the lore of Kidd’s treasure is brough closer to Smith via the Susquehanna River which I believe is the same river in which Joseph Smith envisioned Hagoth sailing from the west sea of the narrow neck “into the land northward”.









Dan,

If Joseph Smith can imagine Captain Kidd sailing up the Susquehanna River to bury treasure then it’s equally reasonable that he could envision Hagoth sailing up the same river to deposit his treasure which consisted of people looking for a better life.

I don't follow your logic here. The West Sea is the Susquehanna River?

C’mon, man.

- Doc

[Zosimus]

I’m reading into the text exactly what I believe Joseph Smith visualized and thus dictated.

I know, that's why I said earlier that it won't be possible to come to any conclusions about Delmarva. Beyond the narrow neck and being surrounded on three sides by water, everything else is mindreading. I'm just looking for anything about Delmarva that might prove to be a template Joesph used.

Narrow Neck, check
Surrounded by water on three sides, check

Is there anything else about the geography of Delmarva that turns up in the Book of Mormon?

[Zosimus]

Here's a good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqEBrkf71Ws

I won’t even begin to discuss it further or see any need to find additional fault in this model. Sorry, it’s simply DOA out of the starting gate.

This is a model I have looked at extensively. Setting aside all the ways it doesn't fit with post-1830 statements by Church leaders and members, I'd argue its the only geography that matches the internal geography and narrative of the Book of Mormon. What's most striking about this model is that it corresponds with:

1. Samuel Mitchell's hypothesis that the moundbuilders came from this geography and fought a great battle of extinction near the Hill Cumorah

2. Captain Kidd's ship (the Kedah Merchant) was named after the main trading port in this geography

3. The mythological founder of this geography was a warrior from the Middle East named Maroni

4. Arabic geographies describing this island/peninsula referred to it by names that resemble toponyms in the Book of Mormon: Komara, Komorriya, Rahma, Sidon, Kamran (fun fact, the Comoros Islands are called Comoro because Arabic geographers believed the Comoros Islands and Madagascar were settled by a Biblical people called the Kumr (think Moriancumr), who after the tower had sailed to the peninsula of Komara in ships modeled after Noah's Ark (not unlike the Jaredites).

5. The maps of this geography that could have been used as a template in the decades before the publication of the Book of Mormon match the internal geography of the Book of Mormon quite well.

Remember, Martin Harris had visited Samuel Mitchell two times (possibly more) before the publication of the Book of Mormon and Mitchell had told him that the characters taken from the Book of Mormon, were from a nation now extinct, which he named.

Richard Bennet proposes that Samuel Mitchell was interested in the Book or Mormon characters because he saw it as a way to support his hypothesis that the moundbuilders in Ohio and New York were Malay. So let's suppose Samuel Mitchell told Martin Harris in 1828 that the Book of Mormon characters were from the now extinct Malay moundbuilders who were destroyed in a great battle near Onandaga, New York. What would be the probability that the Book of Mormon (and the 1834 Zelph account) tells that story using that geography as a template?

It would follow that the Book of Mormon intended to tell the story of Samuel Mitchell's Malay moundbuilders, and their leader Maroni, on the peninsula of Komara.