Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

[Fence Sitter]

I have siblings who give me the same sort of testimony. I reply that in the same way that they know the church is true, I know it is false.
Really there is no "know" in this kind of belief, and that is all it is: belief. There is conviction based on emotional responses which are easily manipulated and produced, and there is conviction based on the evidence on hand. And while I don't really claim to know the SLC branch of Mormonism is false, I do know that I want no part of a God who treats His creations that way.

[dastardly stem]

At times I get up in Fast and Testimony Meetings and say, among other things, that I know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. By that I don't mean that I have a step by step proof from known axioms to my conclusion about the LDS Church. Rather I mean that I have a very strong hunch that that conclusion is correct. I have talked a little about this on other threads. It's obvious to me that human beings (and all other forms of life?) are non-deterministic, and it's also obvious that non-determinism cannot arise out of a completely deterministic universe, so I have concluded that someone, or some group of beings, with free will has/have existed since the moment of the Big Bang. Some posters have pointed out that at the quantum level the entire universe is non-deterministic, and that that might be the source of non-determinism in living things. That seems to be an argument that life is simply the manifestation at the macroscopic level of the non-determinism that exists at the microscopic level. At any rate I don't buy that argument. There are reasons why other macroscopic entities follow rigid deterministic laws, and I really doubt that there's some reason non-determinism from quantum objects can survive in living objects but not in a large boulder or a slowly moving glacier. Anyhow, my hunch tells me that being or group of beings that has existed since the Big Bang could very possibly be God and, as I've also posted in other threads, I asked that God if the LDS Church is true, and the only answer I got was yes. That is why I say that I know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true.

I've enjoyed the thoughtful questions and ideas that people have given in response in this thread to this point. I also appreciate you're willing to put that testimony thing back out there and let it be the answer. It appears you are trying to reason your way to think there is some sort of God entity then with that confidence you are sure your inner witness, feelings, impressions, hopes are God telling you some particular religious affiliation matters to him...matters a great deal. So as of right now, children are suffering physically while also stuck in ignorance but somehow God has love enough for you to give you basically everything. That's a big problem to me, and makes me wonder why anyone would assume their God is anything but their own selfish hopes and desires. As it is, your witness that sits inside you is nothing to everyone else. Its just your own selfish hope that you have something better than everyone else. Maybe.

We have to all assume if you grew up in Islam in the world of Islam and had God beat into you, you'd likely be as strongly convicted of Islam as you are of Mormonism. Maybe moreso. And yet, you are determined to think you are free to choose whatever you like. If your brain, impressions, biology, environment, family aren't in play for you when it comes to picking a religion you'd have some sort of point. As it is it appears God, if you are right, has favored you from before this world. In that sense, maybe Mormonism is the only true religion. He calls few and chooses even fewer. In all honesty it doesn't appear anyone can do anything about the situation at all. God has decided it before we ever were.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I asked that God if the LDS Church is true, and the only answer I got was yes. That is why I say that I know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true.

There’s that weird set up again. You asked '”god” if an organization was true. Was it true when it covered for a man who raped his toddler, filmed it, and posted it to the Internet? Was is true when it covered for the same man who attempted to rape his baby, film it, and post it to the Internet? Was it true when it didn’t excommunicate a Bishop who sexually assaulted around a dozen kids, but rather knowingly covered for him? Was it true when it universally excommunicates thieves who steal from tithing, thus setting a precedent that theft of tithing funds is more grave than raping kids?

- Doc

[drumdude]

I think shades is being a little harsh.


“I know the church is true” is a cultural meme within Mormonism and should be understood in that context. Mormons mean it in the same way he is using it, I think.

[Dr Moore]

Personal conversion stories are just that - personal. I don’t know why people would attack KevinSim for sharing his at this point of life.

For all the confirming experiences I had, my spiritual deconversion experience as re Mormonism was far more powerful. Like the sum of small magnets can only be defeated by an equally larger magnet. That’s where I am now and I’m sure KevinSim will afford my strongest experience equal respect as his own.

[Moksha]

Be proud to say you have a strong hunch. If more people said that, then we would not have to feel that Fast and Testimony meeting is a time to burn epistemology at the stake.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Personal conversion stories are just that - personal. I don’t know why people would attack KevinSim for sharing his at this point of life.

For all the confirming experiences I had, my spiritual deconversion experience as re Mormonism was far more powerful. Like the sum of small magnets can only be defeated by an equally larger magnet. That’s where I am now and I’m sure KevinSim will afford my strongest experience equal respect as his own.

Well. It’s a discussion board, not a bulletin board. How would you prefer board members address a testihunch about an organization?

- Doc

[Physics Guy]

I'm one of this board's softies about belief; I'll defend belief as a reasonable choice in ways that others don't buy. For that very reason, though, I'm sensitive about saying "know" instead of "believe". I find some good use cases for "believe", so to me "know" should mean something different. I wouldn't say "know" to describe a strong hunch.

And I'm afraid I don't think most other people really would, either. Maybe I'm just too cynical, or have too little experience of Mormon life, but my strong hunch is that the whole reason why the favoured phrase is "I know the Church is true", rather than "I believe the Church is true", is that saying "I know" sounds like more than a strong hunch, to everybody who hears it. So that strongly worded statement puts pressure on everyone who hears it, to accept the statement itself as a kind of evidence, like eyewitness testimony. It even puts pressure on the person who makes the statement, to adopt the high degree of confidence that they have expressed.

I'm willing to attach a certain amount of weight to other people's testimonies of belief. If a person I respect tells me they believe something, that inclines to give the matter a second thought, myself. The Mormon profession of knowledge feels like overselling to me, though. Other religions I know do not do that, at least not so regularly.

I'm also still baffled by the fact that it's not Mormon teachings that are "known" to be true, but "the Church" itself. To me that adjective just doesn't go with that noun. Most other churches like to believe that they have true doctrine, but truth isn't a property that applies to groups of people.

One does not say that a company, or a family, or a baseball team is true. Amazon and Google aren't true. The Kardassians and the Mountbatten-Windsors aren't true. The Saints and the Dodgers aren't true. Not even the Marine Corps is true. They might all be honest, they might all be trustworthy, they might even be right; but they cannot be true, any more than they can be triangular or pluperfect. So how the heck could any church, no matter how true its principles were, ever itself be true?

[Dr Moore]

Personal conversion stories are just that - personal. I don’t know why people would attack KevinSim for sharing his at this point of life.

For all the confirming experiences I had, my spiritual deconversion experience as re Mormonism was far more powerful. Like the sum of small magnets can only be defeated by an equally larger magnet. That’s where I am now and I’m sure KevinSim will afford my strongest experience equal respect as his own.

Well. It’s a discussion board, not a bulletin board. How would you prefer board members address a testihunch about an organization?

- Doc

What’s the difference between Kevin’s decision to follow his emotionally charged hunch about an organization, vs a person? Not everything we do for personal joy needs to have a perfect logical underpinning. Logic doesn’t explain love either.

[KevinSim]

At times I get up in Fast and Testimony Meetings and say, among other things, that I know the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. By that I don't mean that I have a step by step proof from known axioms to my conclusion about the LDS Church. Rather I mean that I have a very strong hunch that that conclusion is correct.

So when you get up in F&T meeting and say you "know the COCJOLDS is true" you're misleading people. The Church defines that as lying.

I don't think it's lying. I know it as much as I know anything.