Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

[dastardly stem]

I'm one of this board's softies about belief; I'll defend belief as a reasonable choice in ways that others don't buy. For that very reason, though, I'm sensitive about saying "know" instead of "believe". I find some good use cases for "believe", so to me "know" should mean something different. I wouldn't say "know" to describe a strong hunch.

And I'm afraid I don't think most other people really would, either. Maybe I'm just too cynical, or have too little experience of Mormon life, but my strong hunch is that the whole reason why the favoured phrase is "I know the Church is true", rather than "I believe the Church is true", is that saying "I know" sounds like more than a strong hunch, to everybody who hears it. So that strongly worded statement puts pressure on everyone who hears it, to accept the statement itself as a kind of evidence, like eyewitness testimony. It even puts pressure on the person who makes the statement, to adopt the high degree of confidence that they have expressed.

I'm willing to attach a certain amount of weight to other people's testimonies of belief. If a person I respect tells me they believe something, that inclines to give the matter a second thought, myself. The Mormon profession of knowledge feels like overselling to me, though. Other religions I know do not do that, at least not so regularly.

I'm also still baffled by the fact that it's not Mormon teachings that are "known" to be true, but "the Church" itself. To me that adjective just doesn't go with that noun. Most other churches like to believe that they have true doctrine, but truth isn't a property that applies to groups of people.

One does not say that a company, or a family, or a baseball team is true. Amazon and Google aren't true. The Kardassians and the Mountbatten-Windsors aren't true. The Saints and the Dodgers aren't true. Not even the Marine Corps is true. They might all be honest, they might all be trustworthy, they might even be right; but they cannot be true, any more than they can be triangular or pluperfect. So how the heck could any church, no matter how true its principles were, ever itself be true?

The phrase is meant to suggest the Church's teachings are true.

Back in the day as a member I adopted the "I believe..." in place of "I know..." at some point for the same reasons you suggest. But now I just see it more as a manner of speaking...a way to suggest they strongly feel it is true. And feeling it is as good as knowing it, in Mormonism. It is saying they know it as much as they know anything. I've decided to back off on that little phrase a bit since, because in a cute way that is a part of Mormonism.

Plus, there are certainly as many believers in various forms of Christianity who speak as if they know their beliefs are true. They simply haven't used the same way to express it.

[dastardly stem]

I don't think it's lying. I know it as much as I know anything.

I think that's fair, actually.

[drumdude]

I don't think it's lying. I know it as much as I know anything.

I think that's fair, actually.

As do I. Shades was being way too harsh.

[dastardly stem]

What’s the difference between Kevin’s decision to follow his emotionally charged hunch about an organization, vs a person? Not everything we do for personal joy needs to have a perfect logical underpinning. Logic doesn’t explain love either.

Depends on what we decide as our "needs". Some things we do for personal joy may not have a logical underpinning but that also does not mean those doings are irrational. I suppose its fair to say Steven Pinker influenced my thinking here in his book Rationality, since as I see it we're not throwing off a rational life by doing things that bring us joy. Those things seem to be void of reason, I suppose, but I'd say they fit nicely into a rational way of thinking.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Is an organization still true when it continues to deceive its adherents?



- Doc

[KevinSim]

Was it true when it covered for a man who raped his toddler, filmed it, and posted it to the Internet? Was is true when it covered for the same man who attempted to rape his baby, film it, and post it to the Internet? Was it true when it didn’t excommunicate a Bishop who sexually assaulted around a dozen kids, but rather knowingly covered for him? Was it true when it universally excommunicates thieves who steal from tithing, thus setting a precedent that theft of tithing funds is more grave than raping kids?

Doc, all those things are controversial, and are based on things men have said about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I prefer to go on what God has said about that church, and that is that it is true.

[KevinSim]

Many years ago, the Oxford philosopher A.J. Ayer wrote a paper entitled 'Knowing as Having the Right to be Sure'.

Is "know" then a useless word? An ideal that can never be reached?

[Rivendale]

Was it true when it covered for a man who raped his toddler, filmed it, and posted it to the Internet? Was is true when it covered for the same man who attempted to rape his baby, film it, and post it to the Internet? Was it true when it didn’t excommunicate a Bishop who sexually assaulted around a dozen kids, but rather knowingly covered for him? Was it true when it universally excommunicates thieves who steal from tithing, thus setting a precedent that theft of tithing funds is more grave than raping kids?

Doc, all those things are controversial, and are based on things men have said about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I prefer to go on what God has said about that church, and that is that it is true.

And god could clear that up in one second. Right?

[malkie]

Was it true when it covered for a man who raped his toddler, filmed it, and posted it to the Internet? Was is true when it covered for the same man who attempted to rape his baby, film it, and post it to the Internet? Was it true when it didn’t excommunicate a Bishop who sexually assaulted around a dozen kids, but rather knowingly covered for him? Was it true when it universally excommunicates thieves who steal from tithing, thus setting a precedent that theft of tithing funds is more grave than raping kids?

Doc, all those things are controversial, and are based on things men have said about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I prefer to go on what God has said about that church, and that is that it is true.

As yet another person saying things about the church, you have explained quite nicely that you give us absolutely no reason to believe that the church is true, even if we were to agree on what that expression means.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Was it true when it covered for a man who raped his toddler, filmed it, and posted it to the Internet? Was is true when it covered for the same man who attempted to rape his baby, film it, and post it to the Internet? Was it true when it didn’t excommunicate a Bishop who sexually assaulted around a dozen kids, but rather knowingly covered for him? Was it true when it universally excommunicates thieves who steal from tithing, thus setting a precedent that theft of tithing funds is more grave than raping kids?

Doc, all those things are controversial, and are based on things men have said about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I prefer to go on what God has said about that church, and that is that it is true.

Edit:

1. What does that even mean?

2. What would your organization have to do to be Not True?

- Doc