Why I Say I Know the LDS Church Is True

[Res Ipsa]

Could be. Most people think mathematics is true, and yet the organization around mathematics deceived my mother into thinking that she could know it was consistent. The truth of the matter is that nobody knows if it's consistent or not. Mathematicians don't teach Godel's Theorem in high-school.

Tell us more about your mother, and how her life has been devastated by Big Math's deceptive tactics.

Does she no longer trust that she can take 6 eggs out of a box of 12 and have 6 left in the box? Does she worry that a $20 charge at the gas pump will somehow result in $50020 being deducted from her bank balance. Is she afraid to count her children in case she discovers that overnight 2 boys + 1 girl has become 13 or 14 children?

by the way, would you be in favour of mathematicians teaching calculus in kindergarten - or should they continue to deceive 4-year-olds by sticking to addition and subtraction, thus failing to expose them to fluxions and fluents, as well as topology, Abelian groups, etc?

What exactly, do you think, makes such mathematical deception comparable to the deceptions (which you did not contest) of your chosen religion?

Further thought: do you think that people think mathematics is true in the same way as LDS church member think/believe/know/have a hunch that their church is true? Please define some terms for us here.

Great answer. Putting aside what Godel’s theorem actually says, it’s no more deceptive than teaching middle school physics without teaching quantum mechanics.

[Res Ipsa]

Forgive me, Stem, but I have to take exception to this.



No, we don't, nor should we. Said lie does just as much damage if it is spread innocently as if done so knowingly. Stupid, willful ignorance does more damage to the world than malice ever could.

I agree with your comment but I think mine still stands. I'm addressing someone's accusation that another is lying. I think to support the accusation that one has lied, the subject's intent needs to be taken into account. If someone says something that is not true, we most definitely ought to make comment in hopes to stop the spread of the falsehood. I don't think that confirms the falsehood as stated by the subject was that subject's lie, even if it was someone else's lie. A person could very well believe a lie is true and repeat it as if it were true. In this case, I don't think a believer is necessarily lying if they say they know their religion is true, or God is there or any such thing. they actually believe they have knowledge on the matter, or as close as we can get to knowledge.

I think I agree of both of you. False information causes damage regardless of intent. But lying isn’t just stating false information, it requires some type of knowledge about the truth.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

So, you have a strong hunch that South America is south of North America? You have a strong hunch that 2 + 2 = 4? You have a strong hunch that you’re reading this on a screen?

I think that conversations such as this are nipped in the bud simply by coming to a resolution as to whether or not President Ezra Taft Benson was teaching the truth about the Book of Mormon.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

I posted this link on another thread but I think it’s applicable to this conversation. I don’t want to take away from the thrust of the direction or particular emphasis being placed on Kevin’s experience with God…because that is important…but I do want to reemphasize the importance in recognizing the importance of the Book of Mormon in “knowing that the church is true”.

Regards,
MG

1. Why would we care what a prior Mormon CEO says about the Book of Mormon since you’ve demonstrated repeatedly you’re willing to disregard their statements as unreliable?

2. What would your organization have to do to be Not True?

- Doc

[Marcus]

I don't think it's lying. I know it as much as I know anything.

So, you have a strong hunch that South America is south of North America? You have a strong hunch that 2 + 2 = 4? You have a strong hunch that you’re reading this on a screen?

i'd like to hear about his strong hunch that he can read.

[Gadianton]

I do want to reemphasize the importance in recognizing the importance of the Book of Mormon in “knowing that the church is true”.

Sure MG, but it's a useless "reemphasize" to those outside of those on the marketing team. If only you can convince people to reduce the totality of everything to just one slippery thing. Other religions do the same thing. If you want to be certain about the Bahai faith, you can likewise reduce the entire universe to the mission of Bahaullah, which you can study in less time than you can read the Book of Mormon.

[MG 2.0]

I do want to reemphasize the importance in recognizing the importance of the Book of Mormon in “knowing that the church is true”.

Sure MG, but it's a useless "reemphasize" to those outside of those on the marketing team. If only you can convince people to reduce the totality of everything to just one slippery thing. Other religions do the same thing. If you want to be certain about the Bahai faith, you can likewise reduce the entire universe to the mission of Bahaullah, which you can study in less time than you can read the Book of Mormon.

Some might say that you are engaging in false equivalency. No two religions are exactly alike. Are they all ‘true’? Or are they all false? Or do you take a relativistic position in order to not have to come down with a firm position one way or the other.?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I think that conversations such as this are nipped in the bud simply by coming to a resolution as to whether or not President Ezra Taft Benson was teaching the truth about the Book of Mormon.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

I posted this link on another thread but I think it’s applicable to this conversation. I don’t want to take away from the thrust of the direction or particular emphasis being placed on Kevin’s experience with God…because that is important…but I do want to reemphasize the importance in recognizing the importance of the Book of Mormon in “knowing that the church is true”.

Regards,
MG

1. Why would we care what a prior Mormon CEO says about the Book of Mormon since you’ve demonstrated repeatedly you’re willing to disregard their statements as unreliable?

2. What would your organization have to do to be Not True?

- Doc

For the most part and in regards to those things that really matter the leaders of the church have been in harmony. Does that settled position of harmony among the Brethren always occur as some would like it according to their own timetable and/or expectations?

No. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

In order for the church not to be true God would have to withdraw Himself and His authority from the church.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

1. Why would we care what a prior Mormon CEO says about the Book of Mormon since you’ve demonstrated repeatedly you’re willing to disregard their statements as unreliable?

2. What would your organization have to do to be Not True?

- Doc

For the most part and in regards to those things that really matter the leaders of the church have been in harmony. Does that settled position of harmony among the Brethren always occur as some would like it according to their own timetable and/or expectations?

No. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

In order for the church not to be true God would have to withdraw Himself and His authority from the church.

Regards,
MG

So, your answer to #1 is to accept a certain Mormon CEO’s statements on the Book of Mormon because from one CEO to the next, they’re mostly harmonized. But, you don’t actually do that. You throw former CEOs under the bus when it suits you. In other words, you’re holding and advocating for a contradictory opinion.

You didn’t answer #2.

What would your organization have to do to be Not True?

- Doc

[MG 2.0]

For the most part and in regards to those things that really matter the leaders of the church have been in harmony. Does that settled position of harmony among the Brethren always occur as some would like it according to their own timetable and/or expectations?

No. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

In order for the church not to be true God would have to withdraw Himself and His authority from the church.

Regards,
MG

So, your answer to #1 is to accept a certain Mormon CEO’s statements on the Book of Mormon because from one CEO to the next, they’re mostly harmonized. But, you don’t actually do that. You throw former CEOs under the bus when it suits you. In other words, you’re holding and advocating for a contradictory opinion.

You didn’t answer #2.

What would your organization have to do to be Not True?

- Doc

I did answer your question. If God withdrew His authority and His direction from the church it would become just another religious institution comparable to the Community of Christ or the other splinter groups of the restoration movement. It’s continued vitality and growth demonstrates that God is at the helm.

Regardless of what those that jump ship might say or do. Nothing can stop the work from progressing. Granted, strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You and other naysayers will have zero impact on the work of God and it’s eventual mission of bringing souls…those that hear Him…back to His presence and receiving the gift of salvation/exaltation.

Regards,
MG

[MetaProf]

Sure MG, but it's a useless "reemphasize" to those outside of those on the marketing team. If only you can convince people to reduce the totality of everything to just one slippery thing. Other religions do the same thing. If you want to be certain about the Bahai faith, you can likewise reduce the entire universe to the mission of Bahaullah, which you can study in less time than you can read the Book of Mormon.

Some might say that you are engaging in false equivalency. No two religions are exactly alike. Are they all ‘true’? Or are they all false? Or do you take a relativistic position in order to not have to come down with a firm position one way or the other.?

Regards,
MG

To those outside of any of the marketing teams, they all kind of do have the same status so it's not false equivalency.

And if the statement about the "importance in recognizing the importance of the Book of Mormon in “knowing that the church is true”." is about Benson's "all the church stands or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon", well then (the non-sequituriness of the argument notwithstanding) I for one am happy to let you go out on that limb.