New Project Shows Church Finance Corruption

[Kishkumen]

What would happen to such a city when Trumpists declare a new Kristallnacht?

A lot of LDS Trumpists might be in for a horrible surprise.

[Dr Moore]

Dr., Google it... the average U.S. corporation invests, on average, around 10% of their net worth in the markets.

“Google it?” LOL

I’m sorry, but that sounds ridiculously uninformed and naïve. I have consulted with and invested in companies large and small, public and private for 20 years. My job requires me to examine financial statements in depth, and then assist CFOs in making better monetary decisions. Your 10% rule isn’t a thing. The wording of your statement betrays thin understanding. We don’t need to “test” it because your theory is nonsensical.

Companies sometimes invest some of their cash reserves in the markets, to safely improve returns on cash, but that is a risk decision that comes after strategic financial review of the business outlook, cash flow and capital reserves. Importantly, “net worth” (more properly, “total equity”) in a corporate sense is total assets minus liabilities, which is very different from “net cash,” which is total cash minus total debt. For the church, net cash is the $150+ billion, whereas net assets is by some accounts north of $250 billion (some think even more). When you say “net worth” and then refer to the church’s $150 billion, right away it’s obvious you don’t know what you are talking about. You’re confusing terms and numbers before even getting started with “analysis.”

By the way, many large companies have a large “net worth” but zero or negative net cash. That will be true for high quality businesses with little or no existential threat. The leverage helps juice returns for equity holders. These companies generally have only minuscule amounts of money invested in the markets - because the cash is better deployed in the business or else aggressively returned to shareholders.

The latter is what the church SHOULD be doing — returning unused cash to Jesus’ primary “shareholders” eg the poor. That is doesn’t is a travesty and a sad moral failure. The brethren are still trapped in a limited mentality of us vs the world. Weak.

As to the Florida mega city plan, funny how people can make up big numbers to fit conspiracy narratives. Good luck selling this one to anybody. I assure you, all of my friends at Ensign Peak would have a good chuckle at the water cooler over that one.

[Kishkumen]

As to the Florida mega city plan, funny how people can make up big numbers to fit conspiracy narratives. Good luck selling this one to anybody. I assure you, all of my friends at Ensign Peak would have a good chuckle at the water cooler over that one.

Damn, the wait for Zion, Florida continues without an end I sight.

[Dr Moore]

The hits keep coming. Today, 60 minutes released the long presentation of “Cooking the Book of Mormon” (“book” as a play on the financial books, cooked to help members dodge taxes in Australia)

https://youtu.be/pFddArTfjhQ

Yikes.

[Dr Exiled]

Just watched the 60 Minutes Australia piece. My take is that corporations should be allowed to aggressively look for tax deductions within the law. If they, as a corporation, can shave a little off of their tax bill, then good for them. However, is this a church or a real estate/investment vehicle? If it is a church, as the piece pointed out, it should be involved in charitable purposes and not in wealth accumulation. The goal to reach $1 Trillion isn't a righteous one if that is their goal (and it looks like that is what they want to do, and beyond that).

[BeNotDeceived]

Dr., Google it... the average U.S. corporation invests, on average, around 10% of their net worth in the markets.

“Google it?” LOL

I’m sorry, but that sounds ridiculously uninformed and naïve. I have consulted with and invested in companies large and small, public and private for 20 years. My job requires me to examine financial statements in depth, and then assist CFOs in making better monetary decisions. Your 10% rule isn’t a thing. The wording of your statement betrays thin understanding. We don’t need to “test” it because your theory is nonsensical.

The information was from a Wall Street Journal article on investments in the markets from a few years ago. Go ahead and call it nonsensical if you want, they aren't educated guesses, theories or estimates, the data is straight from the WSJ and I hardly think the information is worth going off on someone over.

Companies sometimes invest some of their cash reserves in the markets, to safely improve returns on cash, but that is a risk decision that comes after strategic financial review of the business outlook, cash flow and capital reserves. Importantly, “net worth” (more properly, “total equity”) in a corporate sense is total assets minus liabilities, which is very different from “net cash,” which is total cash minus total debt. For the church, net cash is the $150+ billion, whereas net assets is by some accounts north of $250 billion (some think even more). When you say “net worth” and then refer to the church’s $150 billion, right away it’s obvious you don’t know what you are talking about. You’re confusing terms and numbers before even getting started with “analysis.”

Once again, the 'net worth' figure came from the Wall Street Journal article. I know what the difference is in these terms Dr., take up issue with the WSJ and tell them they don't know what they're talking about.

By the way, many large companies have a large “net worth” but zero or negative net cash. That will be true for high quality businesses with little or no existential threat. The leverage helps juice returns for equity holders. These companies generally have only minuscule amounts of money invested in the markets - because the cash is better deployed in the business or else aggressively returned to shareholders.

Very aware of this, assets - liabilities = OE and revenue - expenses = net income. Your net worth can be huge with zero or negative cash flow, correct.

The latter is what the church SHOULD be doing — returning unused cash to Jesus’ primary “shareholders” eg the poor. That is doesn’t is a travesty and a sad moral failure. The brethren are still trapped in a limited mentality of us vs the world. Weak.

Amen.

As to the Florida mega city plan, funny how people can make up big numbers to fit conspiracy narratives. Good luck selling this one to anybody. I assure you, all of my friends at Ensign Peak would have a good chuckle at the water cooler over that one.

'Conspiracy? Nice, save it. Would you like me to post the link showing how much it costs per resident to create a new city and then do the math and comparison/contrast to the $124 billion in that EPA account? It's quite simple and no conspiracy.

[BeNotDeceived]

Just watched the 60 Minutes Australia piece. My take is that corporations should be allowed to aggressively look for tax deductions within the law. If they, as a corporation, can shave a little off of their tax bill, then good for them. However, is this a church or a real estate/investment vehicle? If it is a church, as the piece pointed out, it should be involved in charitable purposes and not in wealth accumulation. The goal to reach $1 Trillion isn't a righteous one if that is their goal (and it looks like that is what they want to do, and beyond that).

They gonna need piles of cash for this, all from instruction on high from Jesus himself...

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017 ... in-florida

[Dr Moore]

The information was from a Wall Street Journal article on investments in the markets from a few years ago. Go ahead and call it nonsensical if you want, they aren't educated guesses, theories or estimates...

Ah yes, so now you clarify the 10% rule isn't from "Google" but actually from a real authority: a mysterious "WSJ article." Good one. No link? Shame.

Say this analysis exists - even so, averages are a sample set of data, and in no way suggest intentional strategy or financial objectives. Sorry, but you have not provided any valid justification for claiming special keen insight with this 10% rule to pull $400 billion church "net worth" out of thin air. I think you probably realize that you have failed to provide any justification, so the logical thing would be to just admit it's a meaningless WAG.

Once again, the 'net worth' figure came from the Wall Street Journal article. I know what the difference is in these terms Dr., take up issue with the WSJ and tell them they don't know what they're talking about.

Again with the pivot to appeal to authority, without a link. Lame.

You have not clarified a single relevant reason for backing this mysterious 10% rule. Was the article a WSJ study or a random opinion piece? Was it a deep dive, or an offhand reference based on heuristic survey? Was it % of net cash or net assets? Which companies were averaged? Public, private? What company sizes were captured? Which sectors? US or Global? Was this data captured mid-cycle bull market, heading into recession, or a long-term average?

It really doesn't matter though because: (1) church, not corporation, and (2) averages from a sample set DO NOT EQUAL strategic financial goals or policy.

Your 10% rule applied to church assets is like saying that because the average large company in America has 9-12 directors, therefore 3-6 of the church's 15 Apostles probably have no voting power because the church must also be led by 9-12 directors. It's pseudoscience, which is nonsense. What you've put forth is also pseudoscience.

Just to be sure, I searched WSJ's archive using the following search terms.
"companies percent 'net worth' markets"
"companies percent of cash markets balance sheet"
... and several variations.

There was nothing of a deep dive on corporate allocation of excess cash into equities over time. There are many articles on the quarterly movements of corporate and household cash. Into equities, out of equities, in/out of China, in/out of treasures, taking on debt, paying down debt, in/out of riskier assets, in/out of crypto, in/out of megacap value funds, in/out of FAANG. These things are fluid with the winds, and such articles by WSJ are standard fare for subscribers who care about money and making money, so they will factor households and corporations as massive blocks of capital that move with the wind. Sometimes you want to lean into the wind, and sometimes you want to find shelter. It's short term behavior. Maybe passage of time has confused you into thinking one of those commentaries was meant to be authoritative as re strategic finance? Who knows. The whole notion seems made up, or at best muddled.

'Conspiracy? Nice, save it. Would you like me to post the link showing how much it costs per resident to create a new city and then do the math and comparison/contrast to the $124 billion in that EPA account? It's quite simple and no conspiracy.

No need, I understand the numbers just fine. Here's a website I think you may enjoy: https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

The coincidence of figures adding up to $124 billion at this specific point in time, and that this money might be earmarked for such a purpose, IS the definition of a conspiracy theory. I'm sure it would be just as entertaining to show - and I bet you could - that it costs exactly $124 billion to build a Zion colony on Mars, or buy and build Zion in Independence MO, or to build enough small temples that every horizon on earth has one spire in view, or to build The Expanse's LDSS Nauvoo.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

The hits keep coming. Today, 60 minutes released the long presentation of “Cooking the Book of Mormon” (“book” as a play on the financial books, cooked to help members dodge taxes in Australia)

https://youtu.be/pFddArTfjhQ

Yikes.

“Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow men?”

I can see why the Morms got rid of that question.

- Doc

[BeNotDeceived]

“Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow men?”

I can see why the Morms got rid of that question.

- Doc

Yep!