Some Schmo wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:28 pm
Jersey Girl wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:56 pm
Sorry about the crap answer I gave you. You want to know wtf I was on about? I was on the heels of trying to wade through a post by KevinSim (who bears a strong resemblance to Markk in his posting "style") and I blew you off in the process.
Your explanation makes sense to me; I've been there (and have misdirected my annoyance). So, apology accepted.
Yeah, sorry for that. It wasn't a good choice on my part.
So yeah, Mother Nature and natural disasters.I agree those cause pain and suffering. I don't really think in terms of Mother Nature. I think of it as the natural world.
Mother Nature is a metaphor for the natural world. There's no difference to me.
Got it.
That said, I think there's two perspectives that a Christian can take on natural disasters.
1. The Creation is corrupted therefore God is outside of the Creation and can't control what happens on the inside so to speak.
There's one human-created assertion about a god.
Yes, it is. Let me keep going...
2. God does influence the Creation including the natural world and therefore God does visit natural disasters on humankind as I guess, a demonstration of power.
There's another one. I acknowledge they have a Christian origin, but they're still human assertions. The Christian religion, after all, was created by people too.
Yes, I agree that those are human assertions within the context of Christianity. There's a book I read years ago when I was on ZLMB by Karen Armstrong titled,
The History of God. She goes back in time something like 12-14 thousand years ago starting with Paganism then follows various tribal concept of god developments. It seems that during that time, human worshiped nature-related gods and then the concept of Yahweh as a divine being entered human thought and belief. If I still had the book I would happily quote some of it. It was a compelling read.
On the other hand...if a Creator God exists and if (too many if's for an atheist, I know but I have to represent my own position) and if that God wired humans to be able to sense and/or communicate with it/him/her, then I think it's possible that when humans assert God they have experienced that being in some form. Yes, I know you are going to say that's subjective based on individual experience but when I think of God in that way, I have to ask "Why wouldn't it be subjective to the individual?" Because I think that aligns with the teachings of Christianity. It may align with the teachings of other religions that I am not well familiar with as well.
(I opened a door for you there if you want to walk through it or pass on it, either way is okay with me.)
Whew. Okay, how do I evaluate this as a Bible believer? Again, whew. I'll give it a go.
1. Debunked by the Bible itself where God does bring on The Flood, parts the waters through Moses, and Jesus's reported ability to calm the storm...and every other account of God directing the natural elements under the sun including the sun.
Agreed, from a theological standpoint, the first idea is untenable. But if you throw out other people's ideas about the origin's of the universe, it's as plausible as anything anyone else has come up with.
Do you mean like the Big Bang, the singularity and all the scientific theories? Also I don't know what you mean that the first idea is untenable. If you'd like to explain that further, I'm ready to read and think about it.
2. Proven by the Bible itself as per what I wrote about.
Agreed.
Oh no. You agreed with me? You're supposed to provide the conflict to my own assertions. I don't know what to do with you now, Schmo.
I'd have to go with 2. I also think that (and something you didn't cover or maybe were about to cover at some point) humans cause the majority of pain and suffering in the world due to human qualities such as greed.
I probably left loose ends in the above, feel free to press me further in that regard. I don't mind at all if you do so.
Sure, mankind causes tons of unnecessary pain (and that is a whole other discussion - why did a god create such crappy humans?), but that's a distraction. It doesn't absolve some creator of all the natural disasters and painful birth defects and etc, etc. This god people often talk about is purported to be loving and care about us. It's almost as though their belief depends on it.
You ask, why did god create such crappy humans? I think mentioned that in another post but in case I didn't actually post it, I would say that God is holy and anything he creates outside of himself is not holy and destined to become corrupt. I think I used the example of angels somewhere on this thread posed the question: Is it possible for angels to sin? And to that I say, "Yes".
In the interest of fairness, I'd have to ask myself where does my assertion leave Jesus? I don't know the answer to that right this moment but I will think about it. I don't mind challenging myself to think and think harder about a thing.
And then you (or I) have to ask if God is holy and anything he creates outside himself is not holy and destined to become corrupt then why put us all through it?
Possible answer: Because he is a creator and he wanted to create us. He made a way out of the suffering.
(There's another open door if you care to walk through it. You can pick it up and carry the ball or pass. It's okay with me either way.)
So far I haven't quoted scripture. How'm I doing when I bat things around?