IHAQ wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:42 am
JohnW wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:59 am
Lots of good discussion in the last few pages here. Yes, Rivendale, that is something that bothered me for a long time as well. I think I sort of felt more comfortable with it when I asked myself what was the point of this life. I don't think it is an easy question to answer,
but Latter-day Saints generally don't believe we are here to find out the right answer to the God question. We don't "win" life when we know which understanding of God is the correct one. We "win" life when we become a good, decent person. That can be done in all sorts of religion or irreligion. I think that is why personal revelation is individualized, because the change a person needs to make to become a better person is individual. With this framework in mind, if God is trying to get us to become good people, regardless of our beliefs, then I get the sense that if God were to come down and speak to us with a bullhorn, he would have to speak to each of us individually with a bullhorn, which sort of defeats the purpose of the bullhorn.
I think you have that completely wrong John. It's certainly not the doctrine/belief of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Here is how Oaks articulated the Church's position on winning/losing in this life:
...salvation is granted in different kingdoms of glory. We know from modern revelation that “all kingdoms have a law given.”12 Significantly:
“He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
“And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
“And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory.”13
In other words, the kingdom of glory we receive in the Final Judgment is determined by the laws we choose to abide by in our Heavenly Father’s loving plan. Under that plan there are multiple kingdoms so that all of His children can be assigned to a kingdom where they can “abide.”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... s?lang=eng
How can an individual from a different religion, or no religion, achieve a place in the Latter-day Saints Celestial Kingdom?
I assume you are familiar with the practice of baptism in behalf of the dead (I'm not trying to be patronizing, I'm just not sure how familiar you are with particular church doctrines). At risk of oversimplifying, let me explain a little more. To make it to the Celestial Kingdom, we need to become like God. That is what Pres. Oaks is talking about. Well, God is someone who lives forever and acts a certain way. For reasons that I won't explain here, God has required baptism by proper authority to enter the Celestial Kingdom. For me, that was the easy part. I was baptized when I was eight. The hard part is acting more like God. I am so far off that it will take a lifetime and an infinite amount of help (i.e. the atonement) to achieve. For people who do not have access to the proper authority, they can, and do, spend their entire life trying to become the best person they know how (i.e. more like God). All it will take is baptism and the other ordinances (i.e. full access to the atonement). God has made sure everyone has access to this path in one way or another. Maybe you remember the first scripture mastery everyone seems to have memorized, maybe because it was first on the list: ... I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them. (Ok, I admit I had to peek to get the wording right, but I got close). I didn't realize until adulthood that this scripture was also talking about baptism for the dead in a round-a-bout way. God made sure everyone can make it back. Yes, we all need the atonement of Jesus Christ, and most people will also need ordinances done for them.
Many people outside the church don't understand the concept of baptism in behalf of the dead. I still remember my middle school teacher who told the class a Mainstream Christian joke about the Mormons. The punchline was that up in heaven all the Mainstream Christians were supposed to be quiet because the Mormons thought they were the only ones up there. I didn't laugh, not because I was offended, but because I simply had no understanding of what he was talking about. From the time of middle school I already understood that the vast majority of people up in heaven would be people who weren't Latter-day Saints in life. That is probably because I had already done baptisms in the temple a few times.
Long story short, yes, there is a path that people from different religions or no religion will take to get to heaven. In fact, most members understand that there will be so many people in heaven that were non-members in life that coming across someone who was a member in life will be an odd occurrence. Caveat: when I mention this fact to members, it isn't always obvious to them, meaning, I sometimes have to talk about numbers for them to get a handle on the fact. And this is even before accounting for children who die before the age of eight. That is a topic for another thread.
An even longer story short: I fully expect many of you on this board to be up in heaven with me (hopefully I make it). This is because I know many of you are spending your life trying to become a good, decent person. In that way, we are in the same boat, despite our apparent difference of belief.