Question for KevinSim- biblical gospel articulation request

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5015
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: Question for KevinSim- biblical gospel articulation request

Post by Philo Sofee »

Dastardly Stem
If there is a just god, hoping for someone’s torment is the biggest waste of hope ever, I’d think.
A JUST God is the key to grasping that hoping for someone's torment is not religious, it is nonsense. A JUST God will not hope for eternal torment. I think Dan Vogel hit the head of the nail with his universalist view of eternal torment in the D&C means a description of God's punishment, not a non ending torture, which is ludicrous on its face. But, when wrong is done, consequences follow. That's reality. Looking just on the negative side is not balanced, so I try not to do so.
User avatar
Jersey Girl
God
Posts: 6827
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:51 am
Location: In my head

Re: Question for KevinSim- biblical gospel articulation request

Post by Jersey Girl »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:18 pm
Dastardly Stem
If there is a just god, hoping for someone’s torment is the biggest waste of hope ever, I’d think.
A JUST God is the key to grasping that hoping for someone's torment is not religious, it is nonsense. A JUST God will not hope for eternal torment. I think Dan Vogel hit the head of the nail with his universalist view of eternal torment in the D&C means a description of God's punishment, not a non ending torture, which is ludicrous on its face. But, when wrong is done, consequences follow. That's reality. Looking just on the negative side is not balanced, so I try not to do so.
I tried repeatedly to explain how a righteous and just God might function by composing full paragraphs for posting in Paradise here and haven't posted any of them yet. What I tried to express in full paragraphs you summed up in just a few sentences here.

But, when wrong is done, consequences follow. That's reality.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

Slava Ukraini!
User avatar
Jersey Girl
God
Posts: 6827
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:51 am
Location: In my head

Re: Question for KevinSim- biblical gospel articulation request

Post by Jersey Girl »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:46 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:14 pm


I appreciate your honesty, philo. The only reason why I’m an atheist is because I like to try to be reasonable. All we know is we live and die. Anything beyond that is just silly guesswork at this point. Atheism is simply the answer to the question of “do you believe in god?” It may seem to imply annihilation, but that answer says nothing about what happens when we die. The only reason we suggest it does is because believers pretend there is a heaven reserved for them and a hell reserved for unbelievers, apparently satisfying their hope for someone’s pain and anguish.
Exactly. Atheism offers no hope for justice, whereas religion does. Believers pretend there is a heaven without knowing, and that justice will be served; atheism pretends there is annihilation with no justice for atrocities in this life, literally no hope whatsoever for the vast majority of people. Far too glib and depressing for me.
I wouldn't say that I pretend there is a heaven without knowing. I would say that I have a hope of heaven without knowing.
Last edited by Jersey Girl on Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

Slava Ukraini!
User avatar
Jersey Girl
God
Posts: 6827
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:51 am
Location: In my head

Re: Question for KevinSim- biblical gospel articulation request

Post by Jersey Girl »

dastardly stem wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:12 pm
But the best for humanity is found outside religion. It always will be.
You say that as if it were absolute fact.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

Slava Ukraini!
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 8979
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Question for KevinSim- biblical gospel articulation request

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:02 pm
Yes, and no one can say which one is true, since all we have at this point is a mere 5% knowledge (and that changes) of the universe. There can be no final judgment call as to what is true or not with such a meager grasp. We have only 5% understanding IF the universe is anyway at all, surely not the same forever based on such meager grasp of understanding.

I mean, we see bodies decompose and turn to dust. Whatever one thinks of any number of wishful theories that exist for the continuation of the spirit, the body 100% dies and that includes the consciousness mechanisms taking place in our brain, and further in our limbic system. Physical death is incontrovertible, so it follows whatever state we exist in, in this dimension, is annihilated. It’s not hubris to see with your eyeballs and reason it out given what we have at our disposal.
Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:02 pm
That would simply be arrogance beyond control for both sides.


This isn’t a both sides situation. To equate atheism with the hubris of theism is wildly out of order. One ‘ism asses this world for what it is, and the other assesses this world for what it isn’t.
Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:02 pm
We all have to say we just don't know.
Absolutely not. That’s fallacious reasoning. It’s a false equivalency comparing two radically different approaches to reality.
Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:02 pm
Faith in a God is no more idiotic than atheist faith in the Cosmos working coherently and intelligibly day by day so we can study it with our science. We all have faith of one thing or another, there is no other way.
That’s a straw man. Atheism, as far as I see it, doesn’t claim the universe is coherent, but neither is it not intelligible. We can actually figure things out, and just because we haven’t figured everything there is to figure out now doesn’t negate the things we’ve figured out that demonstrate consistent scientific results. In fact, it’s precisely because we’re getting a handle on some aspects of physics that new and exciting approaches to the nature and operations of reality are opening themselves up to us - Donald Hoffman has been on a tear lately about that, as a point of interest.

Anyway. I think you’re in the woo phase of existentialism. I get it. I’m in and out of it often. There’s all sorts of crap we don’t know, don't ‘see’, and until we perhaps transcend our nature we’re going to be stuck in a dimly lit world.

- Doc
Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: Question for KevinSim- biblical gospel articulation request

Post by dastardly stem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:18 pm

A JUST God is the key to grasping that hoping for someone's torment is not religious, it is nonsense.
That’d make sense if it weren’t the teaching, hence the hope, of all western religion. And the teaching found in sacred texts like the Bible.
A JUST God will not hope for eternal torment. I think Dan Vogel hit the head of the nail with his universalist view of eternal torment in the D&C means a description of God's punishment, not a non ending torture, which is ludicrous on its face.
From my perspective there’d be no difference in calling it eternal torment or gods punishment. It’s all terrible sounding—a religious hope for pain being delivered to others.
But, when wrong is done, consequences follow. That's reality. Looking just on the negative side is not balanced, so I try not to do so.
Show me why accepting reality over believing religious fairy tales is wrong. If god wishes to punish someone, why punish someone for ignorance?
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: Question for KevinSim- biblical gospel articulation request

Post by dastardly stem »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:35 pm

You say that as if it were absolute fact.
I don’t think anything is absolute fact, really. Statements of fact are provisional as I see it. Often the most likely gets worded as fact, it seems to me. With that, I can most definitely apologize for overstating it. I apologize for that. It seems to me “ the best for humanity is found outside religion. It always will be, I’d think.”
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5015
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: Question for KevinSim- biblical gospel articulation request

Post by Philo Sofee »

Dastardly Stem
Philo Sofee wrote: ↑Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:18 pm

A JUST God is the key to grasping that hoping for someone's torment is not religious, it is nonsense.
That’d make sense if it weren’t the teaching, hence the hope, of all western religion. And the teaching found in sacred texts like the Bible.
Then why use that as the basis for your thinking? If that were the only game in town, it would make sense. Just because we live in the west, doesn't mean we have to accept the West's point of view...
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5015
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: Question for KevinSim- biblical gospel articulation request

Post by Philo Sofee »

Doc
That’s a straw man. Atheism, as far as I see it, doesn’t claim the universe is coherent, but neither is it not intelligible. We can actually figure things out, and just because we haven’t figured everything there is to figure out now doesn’t negate the things we’ve figured out that demonstrate consistent scientific results.
And it works because we have faith in its coherence and intelligibility to continue doing so. We don't know it will continue being this way. It's why Einstein said every good scientist has to have that faith, that the universe is coherent and intelligible - i.e., we can learn about it, otherwise we would not do mathematics and physics in the first place. There is nothing strawman about it. Our discoveries are consistent because it is intelligible, and remains so, and that is what we hope will continue being the case, we have no guarantee it will hold. Just because it has for billions of years is no proof it will be like this always, as any simple logic tells us.
msnobody
First Presidency
Posts: 834
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:35 pm

Re: Question for KevinSim- biblical gospel articulation request

Post by msnobody »

I don’t expect a non-believer to understand, but believers are given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of what is to come.

Eph. 1:13-14
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

This is why believers are certain in the afterlife and promises of God, and held secure.
The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession... The LORD set his love on you and chose you... The LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery. Deut. 7
Post Reply