I suppose one could make it again as it somehow seems to get laid aside
These people knew the plates contained the Book of Mormon and were old? Just how?
Is it widely assumed by non-believers that Joseph did have something physical resembling plates to show the witnesses?
Drumdude, I could be wrong but I have always thought that Joseph had some sort of plates which he showed the eight witness. I find it easier to think of guided imagination for the three who were shown by an angel. I believe it is those who spoke of spiritual eyes. Fawn Brodie thought Joseph had a prop. Perhaps i am influenced by her. Perhaps finding some metal plates somewhere helped get the adventure on its way. Perhaps he made a representation. Perhaps it is possible all eight were convinced into seeing plates in a bag which held only bricks.
Is it widely assumed by non-believers that Joseph did have something physical resembling plates to show the witnesses?
Drumdude, I could be wrong but I have always thought that Joseph had some sort of plates which he showed the eight witness. I find it easier to think of guided imagination for the three who were shown by an angel. I believe it is those who spoke of spiritual eyes. Fawn Brodie thought Joseph had a prop. Perhaps i am influenced by her. Perhaps finding some metal plates somewhere helped get the adventure on its way. Perhaps he made a representation. Perhaps it is possible all eight were convinced into seeing plates in a bag which held only bricks.
I am sure that I do not know which.
His charisma and history of treasure digging leads me to think he would have been able to convince those around him of almost anything. Props or not.
Time after time he led the fools to go look for treasure, despite never finding it. It's indisputable he had a gift for misleading people.
Drumdude, I could be wrong but I have always thought that Joseph had some sort of plates which he showed the eight witness. I find it easier to think of guided imagination for the three who were shown by an angel. I believe it is those who spoke of spiritual eyes. Fawn Brodie thought Joseph had a prop. Perhaps i am influenced by her. Perhaps finding some metal plates somewhere helped get the adventure on its way. Perhaps he made a representation. Perhaps it is possible all eight were convinced into seeing plates in a bag which held only bricks.
I am sure that I do not know which.
His charisma and history of treasure digging leads me to think he would have been able to convince those around him of almost anything. Props or not.
Time after time he led the fools to go look for treasure, despite never finding it. It's indisputable he had a gift for misleading people.
Drumdude, I can see your point here. It certainly is a possibility one could consider.
Alphus & OMEGUS
What he considers the "strongest" Mormon argument is really just an example of his own will to believe, or less charitably, his own religious delusions. It's not proof of anything.
I will genially disagree with you. This proves that even very intelligent people can be and today are deceived. Daniel C. Peterson is not an exception, even if he imagines he is.
Dan keeps harping on this point over and over. If only people would honestly study the Witnesses, they would have no choice but accept that the plates were real. And if the plates were real, then you have to explain how Joseph made the plates. How he wrote the Book of Mormon so fast. How he fooled everyone around him. How they never recanted their testimonies.
Is this actually Mormonism’s strongest argument?
It's certainly one of its strongest, yes. For years, many of us here looked to the witnesses as a sort of final line of defense that could not be broken. How else could one explain why men, men who personally fell out with Joseph Smith, never took the opportunity to renounce their testimonies of the Book of Mormon? It's such a strong argument in the eyes of Mopologists that they rounded up the money to produce and release an unintentionally hilarious movie about it.
John Pratt was an astronomer and a physicist who used to write articles for Meridian, an online magazine catering to TBMs, Heartland Theorists, and others from the Mormon goose-pimple crowd. Pratt began to drift off his rocker later in life, and penned overwhelmingly confusing essays on how the movements of planets and other celestial objects could determine, with precision, events such as the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, the start of the rainfall of Noah's flood, etc.
Before he died, Pratt was privileged to be one of the witness of the sealed portion of the Gold Plates, which had been delivered to a new prophet in Brazil named Mauricio Berger. He recorded his testimony and later died firm in the belief that he was a witness to something special, something spiritually powerful, something which he could never deny.
We obviously don't expect Dan Peterson or any of the current Mopologists to accept John Pratt's testimony, his testimony that he witnessed something special from God. Dan would say that Pratt was deceived. So, perhaps for Moplogists, witnesses only matter when they're your people and when they're witnessing to something meaningful to you.
Below, in case anybody is interested in John Pratt's witness of the plates he saw, are links to his testimony and to his obituary:
This is hilarious. The "Jesus Loves Uranus" author (or whatever it was titled; it was something like that) had an experience materially indistinct from that of, say, Martin Harris, but we are supposed to sincerely believe one (our eternal salvation depends on it!) and mercilessly mock or dutifully ignore the other.