Are you [huckelberry] suggesting a god incarnate who led a sinless life and was ‘obedient’ until the end didn’t know he was a god, or that there was an atonement plan wherein he was the lynchpin?
If that is what huckelberry is suggesting then it's a common Christian idea. Christian theologians have debated for centuries about just how Christ's human and divine natures are supposed to have coexisted. I don't think any clear consensus has ever emerged, but some proposals have been ruled out as unacceptable. The notion that Jesus just went through the motions of human life, while all the time retaining full divine knowledge, was rejected as heresy early (Docetism).
I think most Christians assume that Jesus had faith that the Father knew what they were doing, but a lot of Jesus's dialog in the Passion narratives sure sounds as though he's going along with what's coming, without knowing where it's all going.
Are you [huckelberry] suggesting a god incarnate who led a sinless life and was ‘obedient’ until the end didn’t know he was a god, or that there was an atonement plan wherein he was the lynchpin?
If that is what huckelberry is suggesting then it's a common Christian idea. Christian theologians have debated for centuries about just how Christ's human and divine natures are supposed to have coexisted. I don't think any clear consensus has ever emerged, but some proposals have been ruled out as unacceptable. The notion that Jesus just went through the motions of human life, while all the time retaining full divine knowledge, was rejected as heresy early (Docetism).
I think most Christians assume that Jesus had faith that the Father knew what they were doing, but a lot of Jesus's dialog in the Passion narratives sure sounds as though he's going along with what's coming, without knowing where it's all going.
Hrm, that sort of begs the question what being half god would do for a person in his position. Would being half of an omnipotent being’s offspring give someone a leg up? Was that how he was able to pull off not sinning for his entire life? Kind of fun conjecture, I guess.
- Doc
Hiring a part-time news entertainment anchor as SecDef, what could go wrong?
It makes more sense in the historical analysis that Bart Ehrman does. Jesus was a leader that was supposed to be a new David, and deliver them from the Roman’s rule. But the Romans killed him! That wasn’t supposed to happen!
So his followers retconned(created a new story after the fact which was made to always be the real story) a reason for him to remain the leader even in death.
Theologically it doesn’t make any sense but historically it does.
It makes more sense in the historical analysis that Bart Ehrman does. Jesus was a leader that was supposed to be a new David, and deliver them from the Roman’s rule. But the Romans killed him! That wasn’t supposed to happen!
So his followers retconned(created a new story after the fact which was made to always be the real story) a reason for him to remain the leader even in death.
Theologically it doesn’t make any sense but historically it does.
Jesus was either a liar, lunatic or lord. I think two of these fit.
I watched both of my parents die early from terminal illness that ate them away slowly in sheer pain and suffering. I sat next to each of them until their last breaths were exhausted, so I too get the sense of an empty God claim. I thought it was tough watching my dad's body shrivel over the course of a couple of years into whatever it was Ursula turned the King into on the Little Mermaid. Then nearly 20 years later i watched my mom fade and die from disease too. So I get drumdude's feeling that Christ wouldn't have known any of the same pain they went through. Both of them near the end were so beleaguered they wished death...they wanted it so bad, but both even as firm believers feared it. I certainly didn't see God comforting them and no priesthood miraculously saved them. But Jesus did say his believers would do greater works than he was said to have done. I don't blame religion for trying to explain pain, suffering and death away. That's all religion exists for--for people to wish a story upon their sufferings. It seems that is all religion is used for to try and block away the pain and fear of the unknown. Unfortunately what has been tagged on to it is all sorts of propositions which to me, renders it all silly.
I struggle to imagine how there's a God. I try and recover my old thinking to at least feel a semblance of a God belief again...but it's not there. I don't think it relates to the loss of my parents and their tragic demises. I was a believer when my dad died and I don't remember once feeling anger towards him for it. If he does exist and he wants to tell me, at the end, that he never knew me, in his contemptuous and haughty way, I might try to sneak in a question of why He did what he did to my parents. But I'd suppose he wouldn't have a useful answer anyway. "Dude", he turns to me thunderously, "you're parents suffered but some others of those whom you'll dwell amongst for eternity, suffered far worse. Your parents continued suffering will be because you stubbornly refused to accept me, bitch." Or something. I'm sorry religion is just silly on this stuff. The New Testament stinks. Mormonism adds more stink.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Hrm, that sort of begs the question what being half god would do for a person in his position. Would being half of an omnipotent being’s offspring give someone a leg up? Was that how he was able to pull off not sinning for his entire life? Kind of fun conjecture, I guess.
- Doc
We always speak as if Jesus is a unique character in history. But there were tons of half-gods who lived or rustled around in the heavens. Its as if Jesus had to be a half-god in order to even be considered a something. His story wouldn't have made it without that piece. The element of him being a half god can be explained for all circumstance now, looking back at it. "he was a half-god so he could endure the pain." or "He was a half-god because as such a magical one only he could overcome death"...or whatever. It'd almost be comical though to think Jesus had to suffer, but didn't know why or for what...or didn't realize there would be ultimate relief and salvation for himself. That would obviously ruin the whole story. "My parables are secreted messages teaching my believers that I am to live forever, will conquer death and be their savior...But I don't know what the heck is going to happen really. I'm just pretending (or I "have faith") in these wise stories thinking there's a future kingdom, salvation and life after death." I don't see how that'd make sense.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Hrm, that sort of begs the question what being half god would do for a person in his position. Would being half of an omnipotent being’s offspring give someone a leg up? Was that how he was able to pull off not sinning for his entire life? Kind of fun conjecture, I guess.
- Doc
We always speak as if Jesus is a unique character in history. But there were tons of half-gods who lived or rustled around in the heavens. Its as if Jesus had to be a half-god in order to even be considered a something. His story wouldn't have made it without that piece. The element of him being a half god can be explained for all circumstance now, looking back at it. "he was a half-god so he could endure the pain." or "He was a half-god because as such a magical one only he could overcome death"...or whatever. It'd almost be comical though to think Jesus had to suffer, but didn't know why or for what...or didn't realize there would be ultimate relief and salvation for himself. That would obviously ruin the whole story. "My parables are secreted messages teaching my believers that I am to live forever, will conquer death and be their savior...But I don't know what the heck is going to happen really. I'm just pretending (or I "have faith") in these wise stories thinking there's a future kingdom, salvation and life after death." I don't see how that'd make sense.
We also tend to focus on the superficial things around Jesus and not on the genuinely challenging things he (supposedly) said. DCP and other Mormons are obsessed with Jesus having authority and keys. Evangelicals are obsessed with Jesus blessing them with money and healing. Catholics are obsessed with being absolved of their sins.
A lot of what Jesus challenged us to think about has nothing to do with any of that.
I'm currently watching my grandfather slowly die of Alzheimers and reflecting on how much more horrific and awful it is than anything Christ could have gone through.
The biggest issue with Christ is that he knew that God is real. He knew that heaven is real. He knew that life after death exists. Real people who die face dying with zero knowledge of any of this. They face dying with faith alone. And even though my grandfather was a man of faith when he still had his mind, he did not see God. He did not remember the "pre-existence" if there was one. Christ had it extremely easy on the Cross, knowing that it was only temporary pain - less than a week. In contrast, my grandfather has been slowly losing his mind for the last 6+ years.
I've heard Mormons say so often during testimony meeting how the real atonement occured in the garden of Gethsemane, because God withdrew from Christ. Well how about God taking away your entire brain, neuron by neuron? Christ didn't experience that, did he?
If the atonement is predicated on Christ suffering the worst possible death, then there is no hope that he accomplished anything by being crucified. Normal people who die every single day go through 100x the pain and suffering than he ever could have in those 3 days. To say nothing of people who die heroic deaths - like those who gave their lives on the beaches of France in WWII.
That's my rant. Alzheimer's damned sucks and in my opinion is irreconcilable with a loving God that could prevent it.
Jesus suffering for sins is only one of many theories of atonement - others include ransom theory, satisfaction theory and moral exemplar theory, none of which have to do with suffering.
The most original version of the gospel of Luke doesn't really have an atonement theory at all. It basically just says the execution of a just man like Jesus inspires us to repent.
Jesus himself didn't teach that he would atone for anyone's sins.
We also tend to focus on the superficial things around Jesus and not on the genuinely challenging things he (supposedly) said. DCP and other Mormons are obsessed with Jesus having authority and keys. Evangelicals are obsessed with Jesus blessing them with money and healing. Catholics are obsessed with being absolved of their sins.
A lot of what Jesus challenged us to think about has nothing to do with any of that.
Sure focusing on the good things taught and tossing out the bad would be nice. Wish we did it better with everyone and their teachings. I get all stuck on Jesus' stupid teachings though too, I often wonder what was good that wasn't taken back? I think of his desire for love of others, but that seems nixed when he tells everyone to hate everyone except himself.
I don't blame religions for what they focus on in the teachings of Jesus. Its a messy pile of contradiction and bad ideas, if you ask me. But, I'm sure there is something good in there.
Last edited by dastardly stem on Mon Dec 19, 2022 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
I'm currently watching my grandfather slowly die of Alzheimers and reflecting on how much more horrific and awful it is than anything Christ could have gone through.
The biggest issue with Christ is that he knew that God is real. He knew that heaven is real. He knew that life after death exists. Real people who die face dying with zero knowledge of any of this. They face dying with faith alone. And even though my grandfather was a man of faith when he still had his mind, he did not see God. He did not remember the "pre-existence" if there was one. Christ had it extremely easy on the Cross, knowing that it was only temporary pain - less than a week. In contrast, my grandfather has been slowly losing his mind for the last 6+ years.
I've heard Mormons say so often during testimony meeting how the real atonement occured in the garden of Gethsemane, because God withdrew from Christ. Well how about God taking away your entire brain, neuron by neuron? Christ didn't experience that, did he?
If the atonement is predicated on Christ suffering the worst possible death, then there is no hope that he accomplished anything by being crucified. Normal people who die every single day go through 100x the pain and suffering than he ever could have in those 3 days. To say nothing of people who die heroic deaths - like those who gave their lives on the beaches of France in WWII.
That's my rant. Alzheimer's damned sucks and in my opinion is irreconcilable with a loving God that could prevent it.
Jesus suffering for sins is only one of many theories of atonement - others include ransom theory, satisfaction theory and moral exemplar theory, none of which have to do with suffering.
The most original version of the gospel of Luke doesn't really have an atonement theory at all. It basically just says the execution of a just man like Jesus inspires us to repent.
Jesus himself didn't teach that he would atone for anyone's sins.
Indeed. It’s fascinating how well Christians retconned their own story to add it in. Convincing most of the world that it was the real plan the whole time.
Thank goodness for the surviving manuscripts which show the progression from story to religion. Just like Mormonism, it’s all there in black and white if you just do the research.
