Mormon Royalty and child homicide

[Marcus]

Given this:



Why would grandma speak publicly about in an attempt to make it a faith promoting moment? It’s bizarre, tactless, and invites scrutiny.

- Doc

The most generous reading i can think of is that someone knew of the death and possibly the coverup, but asked her anyway to speak about the faith-promoting aspects of such a dramatic death. She really did know better, but because she is also very strongly indoctrinated in the lds way, if her brain disagrees with “the priesthood,” as my mom used to call it, she just believes, and trusts “the priesthood.”

In the end, she was obedient, even when her (severely but maybe not completely repressed) better instincts told her this was not a good idea. It’s not a unique problem in the lds church, in my opinion. As intelligent as my mother was, she was completely obedient to “the priesthood,” which caused many problems.

In my opinion that’s what happened here. It’s a painfully difficult place for a woman to find herself.

[dastardly stem]

I don't know, that she talked about her grandson who was apparently beaten to whatever extent and died, to illustrate how Jesus loves her, seems at least a bit askew.

God sits idly by, apparently, while a defenseless child gets killed, but is so particular, he decides to prompt a grandma to go to the hospital to fulfill a Church assignment, so she can report some years later that she was particularly loved by God due to, in part, her grandchild's horrific death?

I don't know, but is that about right? meh...religious belief too often comes off as love of self. No thanks.

[Marcus]

I don't know, that she talked about her grandson who was apparently beaten to whatever extent and died, to illustrate how Jesus loves her, seems at least a bit askew.

God sits idly by, apparently, while a defenseless child gets killed, but is so particular, he decides to prompt a grandma to go to the hospital to fulfill a Church assignment, so she can report some years later that she was particularly loved by God due to, in part, her grandchild's horrific death?

I don't know, but is that about right? meh...religious belief too often comes off as love of self. No thanks.

Well said.

I just recently had an lds family member send around his thoughts on miracles.

One such miracle revolved around the death of our relative, at about age 20, from a small plane crash. It was a horrific event, and ultimately their death was not from the plane crash but because rescuers were not able to find them in the very bad weather in extremely treacherous mountainous terrain for about a week, in spite of incredibly heroic efforts. Autopsy reports indicated they had survived maybe 3 or 4 days, but they were unable to protect themselves from the elements and my relative, who ventured out to try to get help, subsequently died of exposure, as did all others in the plane. It was heartbreaking.

The “miracle”, according to my lds relative, was that a year later family members took their name through the temple for endowments and “felt their presence.”

Yes, “felt their presence.” That was the miracle.

I was completely repulsed by this utterly repugnant rendition of their story, and sickened that the need to create an lds “motivational story” would cause someone to write this. I see the same elements in this story of her grandson.

[dastardly stem]

I don't know, that she talked about her grandson who was apparently beaten to whatever extent and died, to illustrate how Jesus loves her, seems at least a bit askew.

God sits idly by, apparently, while a defenseless child gets killed, but is so particular, he decides to prompt a grandma to go to the hospital to fulfill a Church assignment, so she can report some years later that she was particularly loved by God due to, in part, her grandchild's horrific death?

I don't know, but is that about right? meh...religious belief too often comes off as love of self. No thanks.

Well said.

I just recently had an lds family member send around his thoughts on miracles.

One such miracle revolved around the death of our relative, at about age 20, from a small plane crash. It was a horrific event, and ultimately their death was not from the plane crash but because rescuers were not able to find them in the very bad weather in extremely treacherous mountainous terrain for about a week, in spite of incredibly heroic efforts. Autopsy reports indicated they had survived maybe 3 or 4 days, but they were unable to protect themselves from the elements and my relative, who ventured out to try to get help, subsequently died of exposure, as did all others in the plane. It was heartbreaking.

The “miracle”, according to my lds relative, was that a year later family members took their name through the temple for endowments and “felt their presence.”

Yes, “felt their presence.” That was the miracle.

I was completely repulsed by this utterly repugnant rendition of their story, and sickened that the need to create an lds “motivational story” would cause someone to write this. I see the same elements in this story of her grandson.

Oh man, that's a terrible sounding event. I'm sorry for your loss.
But yes, according to believers God certainly works in mysterious ways. Their "mysterious" replaces awful too often for my tastes. But it's always nice to hear how much God loves them as they use the misery of others to illustrate it.

[huckelberry]

The most generous reading i can think of is that someone knew of the death and possibly the coverup, but asked her anyway to speak about the faith-promoting aspects of such a dramatic death. She really did know better, but because she is also very strongly indoctrinated in the lds way, if her brain disagrees with “the priesthood,” as my mom used to call it, she just believes, and trusts “the priesthood.”

In the end, she was obedient, even when her (severely but maybe not completely repressed) better instincts told her this was not a good idea. It’s not a unique problem in the lds church, in my opinion. As intelligent as my mother was, she was completely obedient to “the priesthood,” which caused many problems.

In my opinion that’s what happened here. It’s a painfully difficult place for a woman to find herself.

Marcus, I can think of different ways that the idea of and ideal of faith can be marshaled in destructive or debilitating ways. You provide a good example for warning. (the example in your next post as well)

[huckelberry]

Oh man, that's a terrible sounding event. I'm sorry for your loss.
But yes, according to believers God certainly works in mysterious ways. Their "mysterious" replaces awful too often for my tastes. But it's always nice to hear how much God loves them as they use the misery of others to illustrate it.

Speaking formyself as a believer I do not see any God working in mysterious ways here at all. Planes go fast and the ground is hard. the meeting of the two is potentially lethal. Isolation and cold weather can also be lethal. Death is a painful loss for family and friends.

[Marcus]

Well said.

I just recently had an lds family member send around his thoughts on miracles.

One such miracle revolved around the death of our relative, at about age 20, from a small plane crash. It was a horrific event, and ultimately their death was not from the plane crash but because rescuers were not able to find them in the very bad weather in extremely treacherous mountainous terrain for about a week, in spite of incredibly heroic efforts. Autopsy reports indicated they had survived maybe 3 or 4 days, but they were unable to protect themselves from the elements and my relative, who ventured out to try to get help, subsequently died of exposure, as did all others in the plane. It was heartbreaking.

The “miracle”, according to my lds relative, was that a year later family members took their name through the temple for endowments and “felt their presence.”

Yes, “felt their presence.” That was the miracle.

I was completely repulsed by this utterly repugnant rendition of their story, and sickened that the need to create an lds “motivational story” would cause someone to write this. I see the same elements in this story of her grandson.

Oh man, that's a terrible sounding event. I'm sorry for your loss.
But yes, according to believers God certainly works in mysterious ways. Their "mysterious" replaces awful too often for my tastes. But it's always nice to hear how much God loves them as they use the misery of others to illustrate it.

Thank you. Yes, it’s weird from the outside to see how bizarre the twisting is to make something meaningful in a Mormon context. But I also remember from the inside that incessant, overwhelming push to do so. I am grateful everyday I somehow got out.

[Marcus]

Oh man, that's a terrible sounding event. I'm sorry for your loss.
But yes, according to believers God certainly works in mysterious ways. Their "mysterious" replaces awful too often for my tastes. But it's always nice to hear how much God loves them as they use the misery of others to illustrate it.

Speaking formyself as a believer I do not see any God working in mysterious ways here at all. Planes go fast and the ground is hard. the meeting of the two is potentially lethal. Isolation and cold weather can also be lethal. Death is a painful loss for family and friends.

Thank you, I appreciate that perspective. I am not a believer and I know you are, and I find it very comforting that we can come together in a discussion of this. Things happen, and all humans can do is be as humane as possible toward each other. I appreciate your kindness, in this post and your previous one.

[Res Ipsa]

Speaking formyself as a believer I do not see any God working in mysterious ways here at all. Planes go fast and the ground is hard. the meeting of the two is potentially lethal. Isolation and cold weather can also be lethal. Death is a painful loss for family and friends.

Thank you, I appreciate that perspective. I am not a believer and I know you are, and I find it very comforting that we can come together in a discussion of this. Things happen, and all humans can do is be as humane as possible toward each other. I appreciate your kindness, in this post and your previous one.

The part I bolded rings true to me. When my older sister was killed, my other grandfather (who lived five blocks away from the grandfather that backed over her in the same small, rural town) had a vision the night following her death. He said that she came to visit him and reassured him that she was just fine where she was. He told my parents about his vision.

Do you think that when he told them about his vision, he was within your notion of being "as human as possible toward each other?"

When I first learned about his vision, I concluded that he had had a dream that he had mistaken for a vision. Would telling him my conclusion have been being as human as possible toward him?

I find these questions hard to think about.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I think if your grandfather conducted a national broadcast to shill on behalf of the Mormon corporation it’d be very different from sharing his story, probably with a degree of confidentiality, with some loved ones. The former act would make me feel greasy, while the latter would feel personal, although maybe not welcome if he knew I wasn’t a believer and it was my kid.

We’re also talking about a murder versus an accident. Peas and carrots and all that, so I’m not sure there’s much of a moral nor ethical connection between the two accounts.

- Doc