BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

[Shulem]

I wonder if Wade Englund is on the same path? Perhaps we are witnessing a living scripture metamorphosis in real time? Feel free to weigh in Wade.

Living scripture? Reminds me of Joseph Smith's translation of Facsimile No. 3 wherein he claimed that a king's name is written in the label therein. How about that for scripture, Wade-boy?

How about turning a god into a slave by hacking off his divine nose? Suppose Wade was the engraver rather than Hedlock; do you think he would have scraped the nose away to keep the secret safe?

Hmmm. Makes me wonder just how far Mormons will go to keep up the lies. Lie upon lie is what makes Mormonism so fascinating to observe! Stacking lies on top of each other is what Mormons do best.

[wenglund]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNopr1ZvCFg

I made a few comments on the manner in which Elder Bednar was attempting to teach something profound to the missionaries in the MTC. Come enjoy an 8 minute response, the length of the video.

Enjoy my reply as well:

Issue #1: Why no Q&A during sacrament meeting?

Answer: Different meetings in the church have different purposes, and so one would expect that the practices engaged in during the respective meetings would fit the purpose for those meetings. The purpose of sacrament meeting is primarily to partake of the sacrament. It is also a time of private and collective worship of Heavenly Father. It is also a time for declaring beliefs and sharing testimonies. As such, the practice of asking and answering questions, doesn't fit the purpose.

However, the purpose of meetings such as Sunday School, Priesthood and Relief Society, is to facilitate learning. Since learning is often achieve through questions and answers, then the practice of Q&A fits their purpose.

The purpose of Girls Camp is to "help young women draw closer to God; appreciate and feel reverence for nature; become more self-reliant; develop leadership skills; respect and protect the environment; serve others; build friendships; enjoy camping and have fun." As such, the practice of sleeping in tents and in sleeping bags, fits the purpose. Such practices do not fit the purpose of sacrament meeting or Sunday School.

Issue #2: The church removes scriptures (the Lectures on Faith) just as they claim others have done in the past with the Bible.

Response: A distinction should be drawn between what is considered as canonized revelation as differentiated from study and learning aids that are included in bounded copies of the canonized revelations. The Lectures on Faith, like footnotes, dictionaries, concordances, etc. have not been considered as revelation. As such, their inclusion or exclusion within the bound copies of canonized revelations does not impact the revelations, themselves, nor does it require a vote by the members of the church. Such decisions can be made by church leaders and committees. Please see our good friends at FAIR: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... th/Removed

Issue # 3: Associating the name "Jehovah" with God the Father by early church leaders indicates that they didn't have a correct understanding of His is character, perfections and attributes, and thus they couldn't exercise faith unto life and salvation as claimed in the Lectures on Faith.

Response: Name/titles, particularly of Hebrew origin, often indicate SOME attributes and character of the person or persons to whom the name/title has been assigned. The name/title of "Jehovah" conveys the following attributes: "Eternal One, the Unchangeable One, the One Who was, and is, and is to come. (see https://housetohouse.com/what-is-the-si ... gods-name/ )

Logically, in terms of identifying and correctly understanding attributes, a name/title can rightly be used for and by any person or being who possess the attributes conveyed in the name/title. For example, the name/title of "Adam", means "ground or earth," and conveys the attribute of being a man/human. It was rightly used in reference to the husband of Eve as well as Jesus Christ (1 Cor 15:45). The name/title "Joshua" means "a savior/deliverer" and has been given to ancient prophets as well as Jesus Christ. The same can be said for "Emmanuel/Immanuel/Manuel", which signifies "God with us."

So, as long as God the Father has the attributes and character of being eternal and unchangeable, etc., then calling Him "Jehovah" would appropriate, and, contrary to what the BYP claimed, it would indicate that one has a correct understanding of God the Father's attributes.

However, name/titles have also been used to distinguish this person from that person, or this God from that God. Unfortunately, over the history of God's people, various name/titles have been used interchangeably in relation to God the Father and God the Son. This is the case for such name/titles as: Jehovah, Adoni, El/Elohim, Lord/LORD, God, Father, Creator, etc.

To minimize the confusion, various conventions have been set forth at various times and by various organizations. In 1916, some 72 years after the death of Joseph Smith, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint set forth the convention of using "Elohim" in relation to God the Father, and "Jehovah" in relation to God the Son. https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Jehovah,_Jesus_Christ

It is unreasonable to not only use the 1916 convention to criticize different usages of name/titles by church leaders before then, but also to conflate those distinguishing usages with those usages indicating character and attributes. Unfortunately, the BYP did both. But, we love the guy anyway

Our friends at FAIR have more to say on this at: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... nd_Jehovah

Issue #4: Are changes in beliefs about the Godhead by ancient and modern prophets, "weird", and indicative of incoherent revelation?

Response: It depends on the nature of the change. If one rightly understand the history of God's people in terms of the principle of eternal progression, one would rightly expect that perception about the nature of God would develop and evolve over time. This principle applies not only to other religious beliefs, but the development of secular knowledge as well. The beliefs of science regarding the universe, physics, medicine, etc. have drastically changed over the centuries and millennium. My perception of God as a primary attendee is significantly different than as a 70-year-old adult. So, rather than considering such changes as "weird," they should be viewed as natural and healthy.

Development in gospel understanding, including in relation to the attributes and character of God, is intimated throughout the scriptures, though perhaps most notably in 1 Cor 13:9-12.

In terms of incoherent revelation, not a few critics make the mistake of viewing the restored gospel in academic terms as if it is a formal epistemology or systematic theology or the like. And, because it doesn't measure up, it is mistakenly considered as incoherent.

This is a mistake resulting from the critics not correctly understanding the primary purpose of the gospel or how that purpose is achieved. While there is an epistemological element within the gospel, it is but one of several means to an end, rather than the end, itself. The purpose of the gospel is to bring us to Christ and enable us to become like him. And, it is through this process of becoming that believers grow in their comprehension of Christ's attributes and character, from grace to grace, and grace for grace, until, as Paul puts it, we know him even as we are known. (1 Cor 13:12)

It is like the difference between taking academic courses on parenting, and actually becoming a parent, and parent for years.

Thanks, Wade Englund

[drumdude]

the purpose of meetings such as Sunday School, Priesthood and Relief Society, is to facilitate learning.

I love RFM’s take on this. The church is stuck teaching kindergarten over and over. RFM, and I, and many others have graduated beyond kindergarten.

You can think it’s beautiful to repeat kindergarten over and over. You may even find it profound to repeat the alphabet song every Sunday for 79 years. But as someone who has graduated, all I can say is that I am very glad that I am no longer stuck in kindergarten.

Daniel Peterson, by the way, has admitted multiple times that he brings a book to read during church. Because he also has graduated kindergarten, he just doesn’t want to make a big deal about it.

[Philo Sofee]

Wade
Response: A distinction should be drawn between what is considered as canonized revelation as differentiated from study and learning aids that are included in bounded copies of the canonized revelations. The Lectures on Faith, like footnotes, dictionaries, concordances, etc. have not been considered as revelation. As such, their inclusion or exclusion within the bound copies of canonized revelations does not impact the revelations, themselves, nor does it require a vote by the members of the church. Such decisions can be made by church leaders and committees. Please see our good friends at FAIR: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... th/Removed

Pure poppycock... I don't trust your source. Yes I shall look at it, it will make a terrific video response to their mangling the context or leaving stuff out in order to arrive at faith promoting information as you are attempting to do here, ineffectively.

[Marcus]

the purpose of meetings such as Sunday School, Priesthood and Relief Society, is to facilitate learning.

I love RFM’s take on this. The church is stuck teaching kindergarten over and over. RFM, and I, and many others have graduated beyond kindergarten.

You can think it’s beautiful to repeat kindergarten over and over. You may even find it profound to repeat the alphabet song every Sunday for 79 years. But as someone who has graduated, all I can say is that I am very glad that I am no longer stuck in kindergarten.

Daniel Peterson, by the way, has admitted multiple times that he brings a book to read during church. Because he also has graduated kindergarten, he just doesn’t want to make a big deal about it.

Peterson brings a book to read?

That is bizarre. At my SO’s parish, Mass is considered a sacred event. It would be seen as unspeakably rude and disrespectful in the extreme to bring a book to read during that time.

But then, I do remember in my youth, a man who used to sit on one of the front rows in sacrament meeting. He invariably clipped his fingernails while sacrament was being passed. The sound of each clip was LOUD. It was agonizingly irritating, and as a kid I was reduced to despairingly counting the clips, calculating that each finger might require 1 to 3 clips and hoping against hope the clicking would stop at not much more than 20. Now, I think back and consider how disgusting it would be to sit anywhere near this unhygienic mess.

Maybe Peterson’s congregation is just thankful he has found a silent way to rudely pass the time.

[Shulem]

Wade
Response: A distinction should be drawn between what is considered as canonized revelation as differentiated from study and learning aids that are included in bounded copies of the canonized revelations. The Lectures on Faith, like footnotes, dictionaries, concordances, etc. have not been considered as revelation. As such, their inclusion or exclusion within the bound copies of canonized revelations does not impact the revelations, themselves, nor does it require a vote by the members of the church. Such decisions can be made by church leaders and committees. Please see our good friends at FAIR: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... th/Removed

Pure poppycock... I don't trust your source. Yes I shall look at it, it will make a terrific video response to their mangling the context or leaving stuff out in order to arrive at faith promoting information as you are attempting to do here, ineffectively.

Here is the transcript of a conversation between brother Wade and brother Joseph back in 1844:

WADE: A distinction should be drawn between what is considered as canonized revelation.

JOSEPH: What ever do you mean, brother Wade?

WADE: The Lectures on Faith are to me nothing more than footnotes . . . As such, their inclusion or exclusion within the bound copies of canonized revelations could go either way, wouldn't you say?

JOSEPH: Brother Wade, the Lectures on Faith are published with the Doctrine and Covenants as revelations to the Church and this is under my direction as I received it from the Lord.

WADE: But brother Joseph, their inclusion or exclusion within the bound copies of canonized revelations does not impact the revelations!

JOSEPH: Brother Wade, I suspect you are trying to steady the ark. Cease to counsel the Lord lest ye offend him.

WADE: But brother Joseph, the Lectures on Faith do not require a vote by the members of the church so you can stop printing them any day now.

JOSEPH: Brother Wade, I feel your days in this Church are numbered and it is you who will abide by the Lord's counsel or ye shall be cut off.

WADE: But brother Joseph, such decisions can be made by church leaders and committees to remove the Lectures on Faith because I don't believe they belong with the Doctrine and Covenants.

JOSEPH: Brother Wade, it is not for you to tell me what revelations have been given to the Church and what revelations remain to be given. Repent my brother or your name will be blotted out.

[Shulem]

Pure poppycock... I don't trust your source. Yes I shall look at it, it will make a terrific video response to their mangling the context or leaving stuff out in order to arrive at faith promoting information as you are attempting to do here, ineffectively.

Dear Philo,

You will recall in your latest podcast that you mentioned how it's always based on what Joseph Smith could not have known that makes everything so interesting for the apologists. I can assure you that Joseph Smith in 1835 and in 1844 had no idea whatsoever that bastard Mormons of the future would remove the inspired Lectures. Smith did not foresee that. Mormonism today is NOT Mormonism of yesterday. Today's Mormonism is a rotten and putrid mess left by the original Mormons under Smith's management.

And by the way, Jesus is never coming back. That prophecy will never, ever, be fulfilled.

I so testify,

Shulem

[malkie]

THE "LECTURES ON FAITH," seven 1834—35 lessons on theology and doctrine
prepared for the '&hool of the Elders" in Kirtland, Ohio, were canonized in
the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants by official vote of the Church.
In the preface of that volume, Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon,
and Frederick G. Williams — then the First Presidency — specifically justified
the inclusion of the Lectures:

• We deem it to be unnecessary to entertain you with a lengthy preface to the fol-
  lowing volume, but merely to say, that it contains in short, the leading items Of the
  religion which we have professed to believe.
  The first part Of the will found to contain a eries Of Lectures as delivered
  before a theological class in this place, and in consequence of their embracing the
  important doctrine of salvation, we have arranged them into the following work.
  We do not present this little volume with any Other expectation than that we are to
  called to answer to every principle advanced.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/45225561#m ... b_contents

[Philo Sofee]

THE "LECTURES ON FAITH," seven 1834—35 lessons on theology and doctrine
prepared for the '&hool of the Elders" in Kirtland, Ohio, were canonized in
the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants by official vote of the Church.
In the preface of that volume, Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon,
and Frederick G. Williams — then the First Presidency — specifically justified
the inclusion of the Lectures:

• We deem it to be unnecessary to entertain you with a lengthy preface to the fol-
  lowing volume, but merely to say, that it contains in short, the leading items Of the
  religion which we have professed to believe.
  The first part Of the will found to contain a eries Of Lectures as delivered
  before a theological class in this place, and in consequence of their embracing the
  important doctrine of salvation, we have arranged them into the following work.
  We do not present this little volume with any Other expectation than that we are to
  called to answer to every principle advanced.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/45225561#m ... b_contents

Exactly, precisely, thank you for finding that! I didn't have the source, but I remember the history of it being canonized AS scripture, and then silently removed when it caused so many doctrinal problems the church without revelation in the 1920's couldn't handle the contradictions from important members, so they handled the revelation scriptures by suppressing them...

[wenglund]

the purpose of meetings such as Sunday School, Priesthood and Relief Society, is to facilitate learning.

I love RFM’s take on this. The church is stuck teaching kindergarten over and over. RFM, and I, and many others have graduated beyond kindergarten.

You can think it’s beautiful to repeat kindergarten over and over. You may even find it profound to repeat the alphabet song every Sunday for 79 years. But as someone who has graduated, all I can say is that I am very glad that I am no longer stuck in kindergarten.

Daniel Peterson, by the way, has admitted multiple times that he brings a book to read during church. Because he also has graduated kindergarten, he just doesn’t want to make a big deal about it.

I prefer a sports analogy. The fundamentals of basketball are taught to grade school aged kids at summer camps and/or in junior high PE classes. However, they are also taught and are re-enforced and practiced over and over again as the kids graduate and move on into high school and collegiate play. And, the fundamentals continue to be taught and retaught and practiced over and over again even after graduating and athletes going on to play in the NBA.

Granted, there are higher principles taught and more advanced basketball skills picked up along the way, just as the same is true with the church when moving from primary to youth classes to adult gospel doctrine to temple instruction.

Yet, as explained in another thread, what the critic fail to grasp, is that the learning and gaining in knowledge and understanding and skills, is but a part of the process, and one of several means to an end. The purpose for Sunday School, Priesthood and Relief Society class attendance, as well as Come Follow Me home-centered and church assisted program, and even temple attendance, is to help us become our very best selves, and bring us to Christ and enable us to become like him--not unlike the purpose of basketball instruction, practice, and coaching at all levels, is designed to help athletes become their very best at basketball, and work to becoming like Michael Jordan.

Thanks, Wade Englund