BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

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malkie
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by malkie »

wenglund wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:41 am
The "justification" listed above is in the preface to the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, and contains no indication that the Lectures were received as revelation.

Granted, the title page for the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants does state "From the revelations of God."

And, the first publication of the lectures (1 and 2) in the Messenger and Advocate in May of 1835, was introduced as follows:
  • The following are two short lectures which were delivered before a Theological class, in this place last winter. These lectures are being compiled and arranged with other documents of instruction and regulation for the church, titled “Doctrine and Covenants of the church of the Latter Day Saints,” &c. It may be well, for the information of the churches abroad, to say, that this book will contain the important revelations on doctrine and church government now extant, and will, we trust, give them a perfect understanding of the doctrine believed by this society. Such a work has long been called for, and if we are prospered a few weeks, shall have this volume ready for distribution. A full detail of its contents will be given hereafter.

    In giving the following lectures we have thought best to insert the catechism, that the reader may fully understand the manner in which this science was taught. It was found, that by annexing a catechism to the lectures as they were presented, the class made greater progress than otherwise; and in consequence of the additional scriptural proofs, it was preserved in compiling
However, Larry Dahl addresses these and other issues in the seminal study on the Lectures of Faith which he co-authored with Charles D. Tate, Jr:

https://rsc.byu.edu/lectures-faith-hist ... ures-faith

It should be noted that: Between 1835 and 1921 the Lectures were printed in almost all of the English language editions of the Doctrine and Covenants, and in many, but not all non-English editions." (ibid. emphasis mine) Evidently, during the period before the decision was made to exclude the Lectures from the D&C, there were editions of the D&C which did not include the Lectures. And, as Larry goes on to point out, there were several times over the intervening years where the Lectures were published on their own.

To my knowledge, the pre-1921 exclusions of the Lectures in some printings of the D&C, and the separate publication of the Lectures, did not require a vote of the saints, but was an editorial decision by the select leaders of the Church. This should tell us something.

Thanks, Wade Englund
You're right that it "should tell us something", but it's not entirely clear what it is that it should tell us.

Has the "revelation" removing the priesthood ban on black men been published in the D&C? Actually, has it been published anywhere?
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You're OUT, Wade

Post by Shulem »

Sidney Rigdon wrote:I move that brother Wade Englund be cast out and stripped of his priesthood. He kicks against the pricks and belittles the revelations having been presented by the First Presidency of the Church.

All in favor that Wade be cast out of the Church, please signify.

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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by dastardly stem »

wenglund wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:10 am
.

This is a mistake resulting from the critics not correctly understanding the primary purpose of the gospel or how that purpose is achieved. While there is an epistemological element within the gospel, it is but one of several means to an end, rather than the end, itself. The purpose of the gospel is to bring us to Christ and enable us to become like him. And, it is through this process of becoming that believers grow in their comprehension of Christ's attributes and character, from grace to grace, and grace for grace, until, as Paul puts it, we know him even as we are known. (1 Cor 13:12)
Wade, I'm glad you're around. Your way of thinking and your way of expressing your faith is very reminiscent of mindsets from thousands of years ago. Take this above. When I read it in our modern world, it amounts to some number of words that say very little. "Becoming like Christ" is metaphor for becoming perfect on Mormon thought. But perfection is a silly concept. Perfectly loving? I don't know what that means. In Christ-speak it'd have to be something like loving people if they love you first and foremost. In Christ-speak loving family as much as you love Jesus is a great sin, let alone loving others. Jesus taught, in one mood, anyway, that people ought to hate those around them: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple".

Yet in another mood he told people to be perfect just as some unknown God is perfect (matt 5 or 6 or 7 I believe). Which in modern-speak has Jesus commanding people to be something they could never possibly be--like some unknown character who floats in the sky, commanding murder at times and yet sending whispers of support at others. In your speak it comes off, to me, as if you are deciding which cheese jumps highest in another realm, as we've discussed. The measure of a human all depends on how close to celestial they achieve--this pie in the sky concept of floating around, being eternally blissful, full of all possible knowledge and praised eternally by lesser things. Progress towards that, you seem to advocate. Seems like the perfect depiction of hell to me...but whatever floats your fantasy laden boat, I suppose. What is a God who doesn't have some number of characters tooting horns and singing hymns to his name? And I suppose for Mormons who doesn't want that?

Keep trying to know the unknown character conceived of in your head. Sounds like fun. but in the mean time I think I'll just try and enjoy they way you express your beliefs. I'm pretty sure none of my family and friends will express them in the same way. They are far more casual and perhaps too indoctrinated in the modern world.
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

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dastardly stem wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:32 pm
Yet in another mood he told people to be perfect just as some unknown God is perfect (matt 5 or 6 or 7 I believe). Which in modern-speak has Jesus commanding people to be something they could never possibly be--… The measure of a human all depends on how close to celestial they achieve--this pie in the sky concept of floating around, being eternally blissful, full of all possible knowledge and praised eternally by lesser things.
The ‘doctrine’ of perfectionism within Mormonism is deeply pernicious. It’s an impossible abstraction to concretely conceptualize and embody. It’s a soft cudgel used to keep the membership subordinated while at the same time keeping the leadership elevated (probably the reason they don’t admit fault or apologize for being in error). From Google:
Pema Chödrön, a well-known American Tibetan Buddhist claims that “Perfection is like death.” In her words “it doesn't have any fresh air. There is no room for something to come in and interrupt all that. We are killing the moment by controlling our experience.”
Seeking perfection is to destroy yourself, remove your spirit from the present, and to keep yourself enslaved to an ideal that can’t even be rationally framed in any meaningful sense. It’s sinful to put that on others.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by malkie »

dastardly stem wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:32 pm
...but whatever floats your fantasy laden boat, I suppose.
...
Stem, may we please have a little more precision?

I'm pretty sure that Wade's "boat" is actually a kayak.
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by wenglund »

Marcus wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 6:22 am
wenglund wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:52 am
…you took the road to spiritual failure and drop[ped] out.

To each their own….
Ah, the “Christlike” nature of some very unchristian Mormons is a sight to see, is it not?
Evidently, you are unfamiliar with Christ's interactions with the critics of his day (Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes).

Thanks, Wade Englund
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by Marcus »

wenglund wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:12 am
Evidently, you are unfamiliar with Christ's interactions with the critics of his day (Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes).

Thanks, Wade Englund
No, I am not unfamiliar with those interactions.

I do have enough respect, however, to not assign myself as the role of “Christ” in an interaction. Apparently, you do not.
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

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wenglund
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by wenglund »

malkie wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:49 pm
You're right that it "should tell us something", but it's not entirely clear what it is that it should tell us.
I would think it obvious. It tells us that if committees can decide what should included in the bound volume of the D&C, they can also decide what can be taken out, particularly regarding those things that do not qualify as scriptural revelation.
Has the "revelation" removing the priesthood ban on black men been published in the D&C? Actually, has it been published anywhere?
Since your question is off-topic, I will point you here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng

Thanks, Wade Englund
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Re: BYP Responds to Elder Bednar - It is Inappropriate to Ask Questions on the Sabbath After the Sacrament

Post by Shulem »

wenglund wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:34 am
I would think it obvious. It tells us that if committees can decide what should included in the bound volume of the D&C, they can also decide what can be taken out, particularly regarding those things that do not qualify as scriptural revelation.

Joseph Smith expected Christ to return in his lifetime. The last dispensation was opening the door leading to the millennium in which Christ would reign while Smith presided over the Church.

Dude, you don't understand Joseph Smith and his mindset.
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