I’m not seeking to be understood, but instead seeking to understand.
Maybe if we both better understand each other we might understand ourselves better too.
For me, the problem I have with the concept of Grace, or eschatological beliefs in general, is the pure size of the universe. If humans hold some special place in God's plan than why create the universe for them, why not just the solar system or maybe a small galaxy? Why an entire universe? If humans do not hold such a place, why worship a God who doesn't view us in such a way?
I know that is a side question but maybe someone can give a explanation of Grace that helps me understand the answer to my question above.
If God is full of grace then why would anyone end up suffering? Is he limited or does he find interest elsewhere? If God exists why do we find him only caring about us sentient beings? Then again if there were no humans to conceive of God would there be a God? Perhaps for most of the long duration of this universe and earth there was no God at all. Maybe he didn't start to exist until a human came along and decided to imagine one. What would God really be if he alone saw and conceived while the processes of the universe unfolded? "I am God," declares an unembodied mind, "I rule and reign forever. I will be the best ever since my magic powers can influence these natural processes that are unfolding all around. That is if I wanted to do something."
Be that as it may or may not, given Christianity a God who decides to ignore many of its followers doesn't seem to be one full of grace directed at humans. Perhaps the believers God puts on ignore are the ones who squish too many bugs, pollute the environment carelessly, or are adamant creationists? "Driving that big old SUV for hours each day, taking a shower daily and eating meat is nothing more than building your house on sand" thinks God, "I can't wait to toss these fools into the pits of hell." Or maybe his focus is elsewhere in the universe and humans are simply pretending they should matter. "Far away from the planet housing life exists a star more magnificent than the rest. It is where I am...and all these holy angels who spend their time worshipping me. Some human said Kolob, but that's just a silly sounding transliteration." To me God sounds less and less mysterious the more one thinks about him. And he sounds less and less credible the more one thinks about him. His goodness or grace sounds make believe the more one thinks about him.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
I still think it may work as a parable for something my brain will never be able to grasp.
I apologize if what I said sounded like a rude criticism. Honestly, I am just wrestling to understand the incomprehensible within my own limited mind.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
Usually when I see a believer state something about how God's ways are not our ways or how He is incomprehensible, it is followed by an explanation of how God interacts with man. Seems like a huge contradiction to me. If God's ways are not the same as ours, how do we know we are following Him correctly or, if He even wants us to, assuming He really cares about us at all? The answer, in Christianity, is we know from the Bible. But the doesn't solve the problem it just removes it one step. If God wrote the Bible then we cannot understand it, because God's ways are not our ways, if man wrote it, well Houston we have a bigger problem, and if God wrote it so man could understand it, then God's ways are our ways, or at least they can be, so the first answer doesn't hold.
Usually when I see a believer state something about how God's ways are not our ways or how He is incomprehensible, it is followed by an explanation of how God interacts with man. Seems like a huge contradiction to me. If God's ways are not the same as ours, how do we know we are following Him correctly or, if He even wants us to, assuming He really cares about us at all? The answer, in Christianity, is we know from the Bible. But the doesn't solve the problem it just removes it one step. If God wrote the Bible then we cannot understand it, because God's ways are not our ways, if man wrote it, well Houston we have a bigger problem, and if God wrote it so man could understand it, then God's ways are our ways, or at least they can be, so the first answer doesn't hold.
Which is it?
Good questions, Fence Sitter. I do not consider the Bible to be much an authority on anything, so it is interesting to see it invoked in the way it is, as though a collection of texts thrown together over centuries and encompassing multiple contradictory ideas could be much of an authority on anything. There must be some way in which it is viewed as such that could be rationally defended, but I have not really seen that yet.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
Thank you Moksha and Dr. Shades. That is what I was looking for, something just plain and simple.
"Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy” Jude 1:24
“the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.” 1 John 1:7 ESV
I believe "grace" when it comes to God is akin to when a regular human walks past an ant hill and DOESN'T kick it to smithereens: Sure, he could condemn us or damn us with impunity, but refrains because it would be immoral to do so.
Adding to the simple example of mercy above, the way I conceive of Grace is Compassion. Jesus ostensibly felt compassion for humanity, as did God, and they taught humans through word and deed to level up our compassion for one another. If there’s one unifying principle we’ll need to achieve ‘heaven’ it’ll be won through increasing our compassion toward everything. So, the grace God and Jesus showed us is probably compassion. Humanity’s gotta level up on that one.
I apologize if what I said sounded like a rude criticism.
Not at all, the fact that my fiction-writing analogy is just another human analogy was an important point to make. I should have made that disclaimer myself, but I forgot, so I was glad you caught it.
[T]his metaphor of the author with characters who have gotten out of control ... is just another human metaphor for something that is beyond our human mental capacity.
Yeah, that's all it is. I wish I had something better, but I don't.
I've been writing a science fiction novel for a few years now, just as a hobby in spare time. The highest I'm aiming is for the kind of competent escapism that has often helped me relax; I don't see any indication that I've missed my calling and should have been writing great novels. I can only wish that my characters were so vivid that they got out of control. I've still had to make a lot of choices, though, about keeping in and cutting out.
In principle I have no limitations at all. I can start a new page and write anything. The goal of writing fiction, though, is to make something that seems real, at least with enough good will from a reader. If I succeed, people should finish the book with the feeling that there were really only a few things in the story that could ever have gone differently, that most of what happened was what had to happen, given who these people were, and their circumstances. The closer I get to that goal, the less freedom I seem to have to change things arbitrarily.
I can make anything happen in my story, but I can't just make anything work. I'm omnipotent, but my task is a meta-task that challenges even omnipotence.
My omnipotence as a human author may in some ways be total, but it's still far short of how divine omnipotence is supposed to be. My imagination is limited, and so is my time. There are changes I can't make simply because if I change something so big at this point then this book will never get finished. So my impression of how omnipotence can be limited is really only based on human limitations. And my task of creating a fictional world is anyway far short of creating a real world.
I still think it may work as a parable for something my brain will never be able to grasp.
I missed this post at first but finding it I find or think it makes a lot of sense. Thank you.
People say why doesn't everything just get fixed by God who can do anything. But in some ways every action God takes limits further action and is limited by past action.
I’m not seeking to be understood, but instead seeking to understand.
Maybe if we both better understand each other we might understand ourselves better too.
For me, the problem I have with the concept of Grace, or eschatological beliefs in general, is the pure size of the universe. If humans hold some special place in God's plan than why create the universe for them, why not just the solar system or maybe a small galaxy? Why an entire universe? If humans do not hold such a place, why worship a God who doesn't view us in such a way?
I know that is a side question but maybe someone can give a explanation of Grace that helps me understand the answer to my question above.
I do not understand why you would imagine the whole universe is just for us. Maybe God likes star clusters. Maybe there are millions of planets with interesting species living there. Some could even be better and more interesting than us.
Do you respect God and feel gratitude for life only if we are the only ones?
