God’s grace

[huckelberry]

One thing I would say is that everything is grace. Given that I didn't create myself, the world, other people, goodness itself, all the good things and enjoyments of life, all of these come to me as sheer grace.

What could I possibly have done to earn existence in the first place before I was made? Obviously nothing, since I wasn't there to earn it. So, my very being is grace, and everything else I receive in virtue of existing is just grace upon grace.

Don

Nicely put!

I like that comment as well.

[Fence Sitter]

Why does one have to have earned the right to exist? Or what is it about being that necessitates obligation?

What exactly does that even mean?

Seems to me that the argument about being in debt solely because we exist is circular in that it assumes some sort of divine intervention was needed to be here at all and we know that there was divine intervention because we exist. Also, in Mormonism we believe some things have always existed like spirits or intelligences. To whom or what are those things in debt and why?

[Kishkumen]

Why does one have to have earned the right to exist? Or what is it about being that necessitates obligation?

What exactly does that even mean?

Seems to me that the argument about being in debt solely because we exist is circular in that it assumes some sort of divine intervention was needed to be here at all and we know that there was divine intervention because we exist. Also, in Mormonism we believe some things have always existed like spirits or intelligences. To whom or what are those things in debt and why?

Yeah, there is no earning it. Earning it is not even a consideration. In that sense it is a gift. Even without a giver it is a gift.

[Philo Sofee]

Physics Guys makes a pretty solid foundational observation I think.

I have been puzzled by proposals that God would not be concerned with us due to our small size. Am I to imagine Gods fascinations to be focused upon space with the patterns of different radiations crossing through it. That is where all of the size is. Or the functions of stars where the multitude is. Perhaps more material for interest with the stars and rocky interstellar debris but I have trouble imagining a creator limiting interest to these due to their relative large scale.

But isn't this human bias? Small by what standard? We are not small by any stretch of the imagination compared to a sub atomic particle. Why is size even relevant? For our smallness we have one of the singular most fantastic things in the entire cosmos, our brains. Hence my questions...

[Philo Sofee]

God's grace is a fun concept and I hope we can all receive it, freely offered, with no strings attached.

Now just hold on one second here amigo. We have to priesthood authority FIRST, and then be found worthy of the temple, before we can have something freely offered...

[Philo Sofee]

On how I see grace, there's so much to say that it's hard to know where to begin.

One thing I would say is that everything is grace. Given that I didn't create myself, the world, other people, goodness itself, all the good things and enjoyments of life, all of these come to me as sheer grace.

What could I possibly have done to earn existence in the first place before I was made? Obviously nothing, since I wasn't there to earn it. So, my very being is grace, and everything else I receive in virtue of existing is just grace upon grace.

Don

Stimulating us again Don Bradley! But, would it be presumptuous of me to ALSO include the bad and challenges in life also as part of grace? Grace of existence means all that comes with it, and we are in it. Just musing with you amigo.

[Alphus and Omegus]

On how I see grace, there's so much to say that it's hard to know where to begin.

One thing I would say is that everything is grace. Given that I didn't create myself, the world, other people, goodness itself, all the good things and enjoyments of life, all of these come to me as sheer grace.

What could I possibly have done to earn existence in the first place before I was made? Obviously nothing, since I wasn't there to earn it. So, my very being is grace, and everything else I receive in virtue of existing is just grace upon grace.

Don

Stimulating us again Don Bradley! But, would it be presumptuous of me to ALSO include the bad and challenges in life also as part of grace? Grace of existence means all that comes with it, and we are in it. Just musing with you amigo.

I agree. Since humans can't have infinite perspective, we ought not to draw moral judgments about things that are most easily explained as coincidence. Existence is a wonderful thing generally speaking for us, but ultimately, our impact on the universe is nil; to impute our short planetary lifespan as the merciful product of an unknowable deity seems rather arrogant in my opinion.

We aren't that special to the universe, but we should be to ourselves. I think we devalue the uniqueness of our consciousness by making unsupported claims that we are debtors of unknowable beings who very clearly do not care to solve for evil and natural disaster.

And furthermore, what kind of grace is it to make such frail and ephemeral beings? Here is where I like Mormonism for its borrowing of Swedenborg. Infinite gods would be immoral to make beings that couldn't become the same.

[msnobody]

One question on which I think we can all agree is that Ms. Nobody, despite disagreeing with almost everyone else on this forum in her religious beliefs, is a model of kindness and etiquette.

I agree and I don't believe anyone has said otherwise.

In light of that, would everyone agree that responding to her question on this thread for other believers in God's grace while starting new threads for, say, atheist arguments against God's existence would show a well deserved reciprocity?

Don

Sorry, but when people ask questions, I think it is totally appropriate to respond with questions that try to understand what their questions even mean. MsNobody is asking about God's grace, to me it would be helpful to understand what she means by God.

And, it is nice to see you here again.

God the creator and sustainer of the universe and all that is within, I suppose.

[Jason Bourne]

As an aside from the Daniel McClellan thread I wanted to ask of those who have a belief in the existence of God, if anyone would like to share, their personal on view of God’s grace.

My personal view probably does fall in line with the Apostle Paul’s view, but it is God’s grace and not Paul who owns or dispenses that grace.

I am not sure I believe in a God, and especially not the theistic God of Judaism, Christianity or Islam. But if there is a God I believe given what little we have to go on here, the awful suffering so many humans have to go through, and all the evil that humans are allowed to perpetrate on each other, I believe that a God would be forever merciful and understanding. I do not believe a god/being that would be powerful enough to make this universe would be so petty to demand unflinching obedience and worship, require blood for payment of something called sin and want to condemn thinking and sentient beings to a hell forever for not being able to get it all correct.

[msnobody]

On how I see grace, there's so much to say that it's hard to know where to begin.

One thing I would say is that everything is grace. Given that I didn't create myself, the world, other people, goodness itself, all the good things and enjoyments of life, all of these come to me as sheer grace.

What could I possibly have done to earn existence in the first place before I was made? Obviously nothing, since I wasn't there to earn it. So, my very being is grace, and everything else I receive in virtue of existing is just grace upon grace.

Don

Stimulating us again Don Bradley! But, would it be presumptuous of me to ALSO include the bad and challenges in life also as part of grace? Grace of existence means all that comes with it, and we are in it. Just musing with you amigo.

Life certainly does come with challenges and times of great sorrow. In God’s grace, we don’t have to go through those times alone. I long for the day when we will no longer have to experience those things.

Furthermore, in response to some of the other posts and things we all think about, God is grieved by sin and evil. It’s hard to tell in this world, but to an extent, he is restraining evil, and one day remove it.