We Do Not Support John Dehlin

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: We Do Not Support John Dehlin

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

mormonstories wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:32 am
- Rosebud’s false claims of harassment have been investigated on three separate occasions, and are laid out thoroughly in the Mormonism Live episode. Check it out if you haven't watched it. Was our relationship stupid and inappropriate, and was it the single dumbest decision of my life? Absolutely. But we were fellow board members, and in that sense were equals at the top of the power structure. That's just a fact. Yes I was in a position of greater power relative to her in our working positions...and in that sense I made a huge mistake. That was 100% wrong and inappropriate, not to mention the many ways I hurt my family. But again..we were peers on the board. If you read the New Hampshire complaint that Rosebud filed in 2017, she herself describes the relationship as consensual. Her words. Again, that's a fact.

So in my mind, if she herself characterized the relationship as consensual, and if we were both on the board at the top of the power structure of the Open Stories Foundation, and if her propositioning me for sex (as I explicitly declined...all in writing) was the act that ended our working relationship...I don't believe that it's reasonable to say that I sexually harassed her. I just don't. Was I stupid and careless and inappropriate? Absolutely. Did I sexually harass her? I honestly don't believe that I did, and neither did any of those who reviewed the evidence...and neither did she until things went south for her. I understand if people disagree with this. But this is honestly how I see it. If someone is willing to help me see how I'm wrong here, I will listen. mormonstories@gmail.com

As was discussed in the ML episode, all three times the Rosebud situation was investigated, no harassment was found, and if anything, Rosebud was determined to be the aggressor towards the end (in the sense that she straight up propositioned me for sex in writing, and I explictely turned her down and reported this to the board). Also, in two of the three investigations Rosebud withdrew her claims after I submitted the evidence...and before the investigations could be ruled upon. Please feel free to confirm these claims.

I welcome credible evidence that refutes these accounts, and reserve the right to respond to the evidence once provided. If I’m mistaken I will own it.

My count is 0 out of 19 credible harassment allegations....with the Rosebud situation being a massively inappropriate mistake on my part.
Would you stop damned lying for one damned moment? This “c-suite” corporate spin BS you keeping posting is not only greasy, but it’s fundamentally dishonest:
Dehlin wrote:

I am at the heart of this organization for better or for worse, just like Oprah is for hers. And I’m asking you to please not play games with me or with the board and try to operate against my will.”

How much power should we assume Dehlin within his organization if he literally warns Rosebud not to attempt to, “operate against my will.” At the risk of being distracted by how silly Dehlin sounds when he gets on a power trip of sufficient amplitude, he makes clear that his will is law in the Open Stories Foundation and should not be toyed with.

Because it’s my organization at the end of the day. At least as it is now. Someday we may have a meaningfully participatory board. but we don’t have that now, and I don’t have the time to interact with such a board.”

If, as Dehlin claims, they don’t have “a meaningfully participatory board” that basically only leaves him as functional decision maker, making it difficult to escape the conclusion that anything done by the “Board” is effectively done by him with the legal aid, consent, and approval of a rubber stamp.

When Dehlin says, “I was the one who insisted on your being paid at all. And I was the one who pushed for your raises all summer. That was me.” he clearly asserts that he is functionally in control of her employment and pay. Thus whatever one might like to believe about whether Dehlin and Rosebud were equals at the Open Stories Foundation, it is clear that Dehlin certainly did not think so.

“We can’t work together and be former lovers. And I can’t be your lover any more. And there’s no where else in the organization for you to go. Because I’m the only employee.”

They could work together while they were lovers but not while they are former lovers according to Dehlin who, functionally at least, believes himself essentially the embodiment of the Open Stories Foundation. Because Dehlin is making the termination of her employment explicitly related to their past “verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature” it is clearly in keeping with Open Stories Foundation’s definition of sexual harassment.

The day after writing this email, he cut off her Mormon Stories computer infrastructure access while she was running a conference, in effect sabotaging her. When she asked him to send her a new password he responded:

“I didn’t delete your account because I was worried that you would steal or ruin. I’ve trusted you more than I’ve trusted
anyone in my life. I deleted it because you’re not listening to me.”

John Dehlin, email of 11 August, 2012.
You were not peers. You were the “Oprah.” You controlled IT access. You were in control of virtually all decisions because as you said you were The Show.

You copped to that, John Dehlin. You copped to being in a quid pro quo business relationship with Rosebud who did not have the power to hire and fire, to shut down IT accounts, or make broader unilateral decisions for THRIVE, Mormon Stories, or Open Stories Foundation.

Smdh.

I wouldn’t be surprised if you dropped a “I regret these actions and I consider the matter closed” on us. You’re a lot closer to those suits in SLC than you realize, brother.

Anyway.

If I were you I wouldn’t have popped back up to “defend myself” because there’s too much documentation of you admitting to things that would’ve gotten your ass canned at Microsoft.

Man. You really need a life coach. I’ll do you a solid, and put on my uniform again, and be the senior enlisted advisor to the commander (that’s you in this case). Here we go.

Me: Sir, you really need to shut the “F” up.

Dumb Officer: But it’s not fair! I’m being maligned! My reputation is on the line!

Me: Sir, your reputation is what it is. Who gives a damn? You made the hires. You screwed around and found out. Own it. Move on. Do better. Make better decisions.

Dumb Officer: But …

Me: Sir, for real. Shut the “F” up. Own it. Shut the “F” up. Drive on. Shut the “F” up. Do better. Make better decisions.

Dumb Officer: I really don’t like you sometimes.

Me: Thanks. Feelings mutual. Let’s get some coffee and get back to business.

John. Shut the “F” up. Own your crap. Drive on. Make better decisions.

- Doc
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Kishkumen
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Re: We Do Not Support John Dehlin

Post by Kishkumen »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:01 pm
Here we go.

Me: Sir, you really need to shut the “F” up.

Dumb Officer: But it’s not fair! I’m being maligned! My reputation is on the line!

Me: Sir, your reputation is what it is. Who gives a damn? You made the hires. You screwed around and found out. Own it. Move on. Do better. Make better decisions.

Dumb Officer: But …

Me: Sir, for real. Shut the “F” up. Own it. Shut the “F” up. Drive on. Shut the “F” up. Do better. Make better decisions.

Dumb Officer: I really don’t like you sometimes.

Me: Thanks. Feelings mutual. Let’s get some coffee and get back to business.

John. Shut the “F” up. Own your crap. Drive on. Make better decisions.

- Doc
Wow. That was satisfying reading. I think we all need that from time to time. I don't think most life coaches do that, though.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
mormonstories
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Re: We Do Not Support John Dehlin

Post by mormonstories »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:01 pm

John. Shut the “F” up. Own your crap. Drive on. Make better decisions.

- Doc
Good feedback. Will amend.

And will definitely work to make better decisions.

Thanks Doc.
Last edited by mormonstories on Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Dr Moore
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Re: We Do Not Support John Dehlin

Post by Dr Moore »

Lowrance wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:25 am
Dr Moore wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:01 pm
And your contribution to a discussion about Mormonism is what, exactly?

Seriously, these pointless personal vendetta threads do not belong in this main forum. They also violate multiple board rules, specifically UR 7 and UR 9.
Do you feel the same about the 100s of D Peterson threads found in the main forum?
Yes, even though I have to admit each of those threads makes some attempt to identify and dismantle one of Dan's apologetics. Your post does nothing but attack an individual. It is a form of brigading and I continue to believe it does not belong here. That should not be taken as a reduction of your right to free speech. I fully support that, in relevant and appropriate fora. Most notably, you did not address my point, but rather did the most Mormon thing ever -- point the finger at someone else. I'll take that as a concession of the validity of my position that your post is a pointless personal vendetta with no place on this Terrestrial forum.
Dr. Kingsfield
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Re: We Do Not Support John Dehlin

Post by Dr. Kingsfield »

mormonstories wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:37 am
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:05 am
Not really 0 out of 19.
See my updates for clarification.
Dr. Dehlin, why are you negotiating and rationalizing with a crowd of anonymous people that hate you? They are jealous of you, your income and of your profession. Do you think you can appeal to anonymous hatred enough to make a difference?

Dr. Peterson can't stop or change their hatred? What makes you different?
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canpakes
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Re: We Do Not Support John Dehlin

Post by canpakes »

Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:51 pm
Lowrance wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:25 am
Do you feel the same about the 100s of D Peterson threads found in the main forum?
Yes, even though I have to admit each of those threads makes some attempt to identify and dismantle one of Dan's apologetics. Your post does nothing but attack an individual. It is a form of brigading and I continue to believe it does not belong here. That should not be taken as a reduction of your right to free speech. I fully support that, in relevant and appropriate fora. Most notably, you did not address my point, but rather did the most Mormon thing ever -- point the finger at someone else. I'll take that as a concession of the validity of my position that your post is a pointless personal vendetta with no place on this Terrestrial forum.
It also appears that the ‘Stand with Rosebud’ theme is only a pretense from Lowrance to push Lowrance’s pet issue of the prevalence of DCP threads. That isn’t ‘standing’ with Rosebud so much as using her and that situation to push a different personal agenda.
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Dr Moore
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Re: We Do Not Support John Dehlin

Post by Dr Moore »

canpakes wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:47 pm
Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:51 pm


Yes, even though I have to admit each of those threads makes some attempt to identify and dismantle one of Dan's apologetics. Your post does nothing but attack an individual. It is a form of brigading and I continue to believe it does not belong here. That should not be taken as a reduction of your right to free speech. I fully support that, in relevant and appropriate fora. Most notably, you did not address my point, but rather did the most Mormon thing ever -- point the finger at someone else. I'll take that as a concession of the validity of my position that your post is a pointless personal vendetta with no place on this Terrestrial forum.
It also appears that the ‘Stand with Rosebud’ theme is only a pretense from Lowrance to push Lowrance’s pet issue of the prevalence of DCP threads. That isn’t ‘standing’ with Rosebud so much as using her and that situation to push a different personal agenda.
100%
Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: We Do Not Support John Dehlin

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

canpakes wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:47 pm
Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:51 pm


Yes, even though I have to admit each of those threads makes some attempt to identify and dismantle one of Dan's apologetics. Your post does nothing but attack an individual. It is a form of brigading and I continue to believe it does not belong here. That should not be taken as a reduction of your right to free speech. I fully support that, in relevant and appropriate fora. Most notably, you did not address my point, but rather did the most Mormon thing ever -- point the finger at someone else. I'll take that as a concession of the validity of my position that your post is a pointless personal vendetta with no place on this Terrestrial forum.
It also appears that the ‘Stand with Rosebud’ theme is only a pretense from Lowrance to push Lowrance’s pet issue of the prevalence of DCP threads. That isn’t ‘standing’ with Rosebud so much as using her and that situation to push a different personal agenda.
Question: Are Bing Bong and Ajax currently only using one handle as per board rules? I ask because having users post under one profile for a while and then delete it, only to show up under a different handle affects discussion continuity. This rinse and repeat behavior allows them to disrupt topics and conversations, to include rendering useless the search feature to address prior comments and ideas. I think exceptions can be made if a user deletes their profile, and then gets permission to participate again from mods with the understanding the board knows so-and-so is now posting under such-and-such handle. This allows us to have a long view of a posters’ content and doesn’t render the search feature useless. Content is important, and being able to have a grasp on who is posting feeds into the stability of board operations.

- Doc
dastardly stem
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Re: We Do Not Support John Dehlin

Post by dastardly stem »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:01 pm
mormonstories wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:32 am
- Rosebud’s false claims of harassment have been investigated on three separate occasions, and are laid out thoroughly in the Mormonism Live episode. Check it out if you haven't watched it. Was our relationship stupid and inappropriate, and was it the single dumbest decision of my life? Absolutely. But we were fellow board members, and in that sense were equals at the top of the power structure. That's just a fact. Yes I was in a position of greater power relative to her in our working positions...and in that sense I made a huge mistake. That was 100% wrong and inappropriate, not to mention the many ways I hurt my family. But again..we were peers on the board. If you read the New Hampshire complaint that Rosebud filed in 2017, she herself describes the relationship as consensual. Her words. Again, that's a fact.

So in my mind, if she herself characterized the relationship as consensual, and if we were both on the board at the top of the power structure of the Open Stories Foundation, and if her propositioning me for sex (as I explicitly declined...all in writing) was the act that ended our working relationship...I don't believe that it's reasonable to say that I sexually harassed her. I just don't. Was I stupid and careless and inappropriate? Absolutely. Did I sexually harass her? I honestly don't believe that I did, and neither did any of those who reviewed the evidence...and neither did she until things went south for her. I understand if people disagree with this. But this is honestly how I see it. If someone is willing to help me see how I'm wrong here, I will listen. mormonstories@gmail.com

As was discussed in the ML episode, all three times the Rosebud situation was investigated, no harassment was found, and if anything, Rosebud was determined to be the aggressor towards the end (in the sense that she straight up propositioned me for sex in writing, and I explictely turned her down and reported this to the board). Also, in two of the three investigations Rosebud withdrew her claims after I submitted the evidence...and before the investigations could be ruled upon. Please feel free to confirm these claims.

I welcome credible evidence that refutes these accounts, and reserve the right to respond to the evidence once provided. If I’m mistaken I will own it.

My count is 0 out of 19 credible harassment allegations....with the Rosebud situation being a massively inappropriate mistake on my part.
Would you stop damned lying for one damned moment? This “c-suite” corporate spin B.S. you keeping posting is not only greasy, but it’s fundamentally dishonest:
Dehlin wrote:

I am at the heart of this organization for better or for worse, just like Oprah is for hers. And I’m asking you to please not play games with me or with the board and try to operate against my will.”

How much power should we assume Dehlin within his organization if he literally warns Rosebud not to attempt to, “operate against my will.” At the risk of being distracted by how silly Dehlin sounds when he gets on a power trip of sufficient amplitude, he makes clear that his will is law in the Open Stories Foundation and should not be toyed with.

Because it’s my organization at the end of the day. At least as it is now. Someday we may have a meaningfully participatory board. but we don’t have that now, and I don’t have the time to interact with such a board.”

If, as Dehlin claims, they don’t have “a meaningfully participatory board” that basically only leaves him as functional decision maker, making it difficult to escape the conclusion that anything done by the “Board” is effectively done by him with the legal aid, consent, and approval of a rubber stamp.

When Dehlin says, “I was the one who insisted on your being paid at all. And I was the one who pushed for your raises all summer. That was me.” he clearly asserts that he is functionally in control of her employment and pay. Thus whatever one might like to believe about whether Dehlin and Rosebud were equals at the Open Stories Foundation, it is clear that Dehlin certainly did not think so.

“We can’t work together and be former lovers. And I can’t be your lover any more. And there’s no where else in the organization for you to go. Because I’m the only employee.”

They could work together while they were lovers but not while they are former lovers according to Dehlin who, functionally at least, believes himself essentially the embodiment of the Open Stories Foundation. Because Dehlin is making the termination of her employment explicitly related to their past “verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature” it is clearly in keeping with Open Stories Foundation’s definition of sexual harassment.

The day after writing this email, he cut off her Mormon Stories computer infrastructure access while she was running a conference, in effect sabotaging her. When she asked him to send her a new password he responded:

“I didn’t delete your account because I was worried that you would steal or ruin. I’ve trusted you more than I’ve trusted
anyone in my life. I deleted it because you’re not listening to me.”

John Dehlin, email of 11 August, 2012.
You were not peers. You were the “Oprah.” You controlled IT access. You were in control of virtually all decisions because as you said you were The Show.

You copped to that, John Dehlin. You copped to being in a quid pro quo business relationship with Rosebud who did not have the power to hire and fire, to shut down IT accounts, or make broader unilateral decisions for THRIVE, Mormon Stories, or Open Stories Foundation.

Smdh.

I wouldn’t be surprised if you dropped a “I regret these actions and I consider the matter closed” on us. You’re a lot closer to those suits in SLC than you realize, brother.

Anyway.

If I were you I wouldn’t have popped back up to “defend myself” because there’s too much documentation of you admitting to things that would’ve gotten your ass canned at Microsoft.

Man. You really need a life coach. I’ll do you a solid, and put on my uniform again, and be the senior enlisted advisor to the commander (that’s you in this case). Here we go.

Me: Sir, you really need to shut the “F” up.

Dumb Officer: But it’s not fair! I’m being maligned! My reputation is on the line!

Me: Sir, your reputation is what it is. Who gives a damn? You made the hires. You screwed around and found out. Own it. Move on. Do better. Make better decisions.

Dumb Officer: But …

Me: Sir, for real. Shut the “F” up. Own it. Shut the “F” up. Drive on. Shut the “F” up. Do better. Make better decisions.

Dumb Officer: I really don’t like you sometimes.

Me: Thanks. Feelings mutual. Let’s get some coffee and get back to business.

John. Shut the “F” up. Own your crap. Drive on. Make better decisions.

- Doc
Talk about putting it perfectly. Thanks, my good man.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Kishkumen
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Re: We Do Not Support John Dehlin

Post by Kishkumen »

canpakes wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:47 pm
It also appears that the ‘Stand with Rosebud’ theme is only a pretense from Lowrance to push Lowrance’s pet issue of the prevalence of DCP threads. That isn’t ‘standing’ with Rosebud so much as using her and that situation to push a different personal agenda.
The prevalence of any single kind of thread is annoying as hell. But, yeah . . . .
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
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