Making Covenants

[Shulem]

Whether Abraham was a historical person from a modern perspective is beside the point.

I don’t think it is. I’ve stated why.

First things first.

Regards,
MG

Okay, first things first: According to the Bible, Abram the son of Tera was born. And according to the Bible Abraham lived for 175 years and his father for 205 years.

THAT is impossible. The ages are false. The persons are false too.

false + false = false

You have to deal with that, MG. It's your problem not mine. I testify that Abraham was a mythical person and the fantastic age attributed to him for having lived 175 years is pure fiction. The Jewish chronology in the Bible is nonsense. Nobody lives to be that old. It is medically impossible. But if you want to have faith and think it is possible then more power to you. But you will never, ever, get me to drink of that kind of faith. It's religious poison and leads to brainwashing.

[MG 2.0]

If Abraham was never in Egypt, or the stories of the Old Testament Abraham were not consistent and contemporaneous with the story of Abraham in Egypt, then you do not have the single historical Abraham that you need.

Did you ever read Nibley’s “Abraham in Egypt”?

I have not.

A commenter here:

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/ ... m_in_Egypt

said:

Nibley draws on his knowledge of Egyptology to draw parallels between what is presented in the Book of Abraham and what is known of ancient Egyptian mythology and religion, primarily with the purpose of supporting and enriching a reading of the former text. For me, much more interestingly, Nibley also draws parallels between the "Abraham Literature" (works including the so-called "Genesis Apocryphon," a fragment of the Qumran scrolls, and the "Apocalypse of Abraham," all searchable and readable via wikipedia): pseudoepigraphical and apocryphal texts that could not have been available to Joseph Smith in 1840.

So for the sake of conversation let’s say that there was a historical Abram/Abraham and that he did make it to Egypt.

I think what I hear you saying is that there are no known evidences in the chronological outline in the Old Testament that allows for Abraham to have ever been in Egypt? So the Old Testament conflicts with what we have in the Book of Abraham?

What is that evidence which would demonstrate that the Abraham of the Old Testament could not have spent time in Egypt?

Hard evidence.

Your knowledge on this subject is quite possibly superior to mine. I haven’t spent much time with the parallels…or not…between Old Testament Abraham and Book of Abraham Abraham.

So help me out.

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

Shulem, what probabilities do you think should be assigned to each of the three?

The points you bulleted serve as a collective statement to show Abraham was not a real person. There is no Egyptian record of an Asiatic shepherd gaining access into the royal throne of an Egyptian king during the dynastic era in question. There is no precedent for that kind of fantastic claim. The explanations of Facsimile No. 3 and all it represents from Joseph Smith's point of view is 100% false. There is no possibility that any of it could be true. Zero chance!

There is no chance that a person named Abraham described in the stories of the Old Testament lived to be 175 years and his father 205 and his grandfather 148. The stories are religious fiction.

There is absolutely no chance whatsoever that the account given of Abram in Egypt as detailed in the Book of Abraham is true. It is 100% false. Egypt was not founded and settled by the sons of Ham. That is religious myth and is totally wrong. Egypt is much older than the Jews and the chronology of the Bible is wrong. Egypt was not founded in 2300 BC after the so-called flood.

0 x 0 = 0

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Parallelomania.

- Doc

[MG 2.0]

There is absolutely no chance whatsoever that the account given of Abram in Egypt as detailed in the Book of Abraham is true.

So Nibley was just spouting BS?

Regards,
MG

[malkie]

If Abraham was never in Egypt, or the stories of the Old Testament Abraham were not consistent and contemporaneous with the story of Abraham in Egypt, then you do not have the single historical Abraham that you need.

Did you ever read Nibley’s “Abraham in Egypt”?

I have not.

A commenter here:

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/ ... m_in_Egypt

said:

Nibley draws on his knowledge of Egyptology to draw parallels between what is presented in the Book of Abraham and what is known of ancient Egyptian mythology and religion, primarily with the purpose of supporting and enriching a reading of the former text. For me, much more interestingly, Nibley also draws parallels between the "Abraham Literature" (works including the so-called "Genesis Apocryphon," a fragment of the Qumran scrolls, and the "Apocalypse of Abraham," all searchable and readable via wikipedia): pseudoepigraphical and apocryphal texts that could not have been available to Joseph Smith in 1840.

So for the sake of conversation let’s say that there was a historical Abram/Abraham and that he did make it to Egypt.

I think what I hear you saying is that there are no known evidences in the chronological outline in the Old Testament that allows for Abraham to have ever been in Egypt? So the Old Testament conflicts with what we have in the Book of Abraham?

What is that evidence which would demonstrate that the Abraham of the Old Testament could not have spent time in Egypt? Hard evidence.

Your knowledge on this subject is quite possibly superior to mine. I haven’t spent much time with the parallels…or not…between Old Testament Abraham and Book of Abraham Abraham.

So help me out.

Regards,
MG

I have not read anything of Nibley since the early 1970, and could not, from memory, even tell you what I did or did not read then. So my knowledge on this subject is effectively zero.

But what you quoted does not, to my mind, supply evidence. Someone draws parallels - great, if you believe it.

Here is the best help I can give you on this:

Nobody - including me - needs to present hard evidence which would demonstrate that the Abraham of the Old Testament could not have spent time in Egypt unless they are making such an assertion.

My position is that anyone asserting that there was an Abraham who satisfied the 3 bullet points I provided is on the hook to provide the "hard evidence" you seek to support that assertion.

[Shulem]

Parallelomania.

- Doc

Which is all based on fantastic claims of abstract thinking. We are sure that nobody by the name of Abraham ever lived to be 175 years old and sat on an Egyptian king's throne during one of the most prestigious eras of Egyptian power and dominion. No vile Asiatic could do that to a native Egyptian king.

We base our claims on the numbers. Simple math, if MG is intelligent enough to count and add the numbers which I think he is, then he must come to reason. The biblical date and setting for 2300 BC for Egypt's making according to the Book of Abraham chapter one is absolutely, unequivocally -- false. There are no parallels or any amount of abstract thinking that can change the numbers in order to make the Book of Abraham true. Joseph Smith was making crap up and he was wrong. The so-called Spirit of God that burned in his breast was the spirit of lying. Smith was a liar and the numbers prove it.

[Shulem]

There is absolutely no chance whatsoever that the account given of Abram in Egypt as detailed in the Book of Abraham is true.

So Nibley was just spouting BS?

Regards,
MG

Nibley was a Goddamn liar!

[MG 2.0]

Did you ever read Nibley’s “Abraham in Egypt”?

I have not.

A commenter here:

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/ ... m_in_Egypt

said: “ Nibley draws on his knowledge of Egyptology to draw parallels between what is presented in the Book of Abraham and what is known of ancient Egyptian mythology and religion, primarily with the purpose of supporting and enriching a reading of the former text. For me, much more interestingly, Nibley also draws parallels between the "Abraham Literature" (works including the so-called "Genesis Apocryphon," a fragment of the Qumran scrolls, and the "Apocalypse of Abraham," all searchable and readable via wikipedia): pseudoepigraphical and apocryphal texts that could not have been available to Joseph Smith in 1840.”


So for the sake of conversation let’s say that there was a historical Abram/Abraham and that he did make it to Egypt.

I think what I hear you saying is that there are no known evidences in the chronological outline in the Old Testament that allows for Abraham to have ever been in Egypt? So the Old Testament conflicts with what we have in the Book of Abraham?

What is that evidence which would demonstrate that the Abraham of the Old Testament could not have spent time in Egypt? Hard evidence.

Your knowledge on this subject is quite possibly superior to mine. I haven’t spent much time with the parallels…or not…between Old Testament Abraham and Book of Abraham Abraham.

So help me out.

Regards,
MG

I have not read anything of Nibley since the early 1970, and could not, from memory, even tell you what I did or did not read then. So my knowledge on this subject is effectively zero.

But what you quoted does not, to my mind, supply evidence. Someone draws parallels - great, if you believe it.

Here is the best help I can give you on this:

Nobody - including me - needs to present hard evidence which would demonstrate that the Abraham of the Old Testament could not have spent time in Egypt unless they are making such an assertion.

My position is that anyone asserting that there was an Abraham who satisfied the 3 bullet points I provided is on the hook to provide the "hard evidence" you seek to support that assertion.

So we’re either back to ground zero or don’t really have a solid incontrovertible baseline to even start from. Right?

Flip sides of the coin always seem to come into play.

Dang. Everything always comes back to faith…and cumulative experiences (including spiritual) and little ‘ah hah!’ evidences along the way.

It’s the cumulative experience(s) in my life that permit me to put Abraham on the map of real possibilities along with other Old Testament prophets. That then comes into play with covenantal relationships that can be made with God, etc.

But to each his own, I guess.

1970’s huh? I graduated from high school in 1975.

Side note: I guess I should read more Nibley…but I probably will not get around to it. I never did catch the ‘Nibley bug’. Probably should have. Spent too much time reading Sunstone/Dialogue. I wonder how many folks around here were at one time Nibleyites. I doubt the younger generation has in many cases even heard his name unless it was in connection with the big brouhaha that his daughter put out there years ago.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

So Nibley was just spouting BS?

Regards,
MG

Nibley was a Goddamn liar!

Hmm…OK. That is one opinion, I guess.

Regards,
MG