Church comments on SEC settlement

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
MetaProf
Nursery
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:09 am

Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

Post by MetaProf »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:53 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 7:53 pm


No. It was to show that there wasn’t some kind of nefarious intent. That the Brethren’s motivations were benign in respect to the members of the church.

Earlier someone said that their motivation is all about profits.

I then asked “why”.

No answer was forthcoming.

The prevailing opinion here is that there was some kind of evil intent or motivation involved in this whole thing.

I again would ask, why?

Simple and raw power and dominion? I really don’t think so. I think the actual reasoning was given in my earlier quote from Roger Clarke.

Regards,
MG
Back on page 9 I posted this. Unless I’ve missed it I haven’t seen a reasonable answer to “why”?

I’ve heard ‘control’ and ‘profits’ but neither of these seems to make sense. Could the church have benign and altruistic motives for caching a lot of dough? And similar to Trump did they do what they did taking advantage of the then current tax laws dealing with sheltering money. Even if it now looks shady?

The fact is, as soon as they were made aware of the problems that the SEC saw in moving money around in this fashion they stopped immediately.

Maybe the answers to these particular questions have been given due diligence/justice. If so, sorry to butt in.

I’m still not convinced there was nefarious intent after all is said and done. Did K&M have some smooth talkers and convincing Trump like arguments to present to church leaders? Possibly. But they may have thought the ends justified the means as long as they weren’t outright committing tax fraud/crimes. It’s been a week or so since I did read the SEC document.

Maybe I’m forgetting something. That I wouldn’t doubt. 😉

Why is the church stockpiling a lot of dough?

Regards,
MG
It's charming how the closest analog to the church here is Donald Trump
Dr Exiled
God
Posts: 1602
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:40 pm

Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

Post by Dr Exiled »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 5:06 pm
Dr Moore wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 2:33 pm
Lying to poor people who give you money in good faith is nefarious.

End of line.
I posted this also earlier in this thread:

The head of the church's investment management company, Roger Clarke, said that church leaders raised the alarm over knowledge of the fund potentially discouraging members from giving regular donations that are known as tithes.

Two years ago, Clarke said paying to tithe was a sense of commitment much more than the church needing the money for itself. He noted that this was why church leaders did not want to be in a position where their members would not make such contributions.

https://www.hngn.com/articles/246857/20 ... tments.htm
That would be an altruistic motive.

I know that this is beating a dead horse to ask this question again, but here goes:

Did the church actually do anything that was criminally illegal before they ‘got caught’ using the means that they did to keep the large sum of money hidden? Trump has been accused of shenanigans in his wheeling and dealing before he was President but he uses the excuse that he was technically working within the laws as they were written at the time. Is the same thing true here?

A situation where the ends justified the means even if the ends were stretching the limits of legality but still within the law as written.

I just want to get this clear. Then I’ll bow out and leave things to the financial gurus and whiz kids here.

Regards,
MG
Yes. See 18 U.S.C. § 1001 regarding making false or misleading statements to the government. In this case, however, the church wisely chose not to take it that far and instead agreed to pay a hefty fine. The SEC press release is pretty damning, unless of course if one's faith requires one to look the other way. Cognitive dissonance is alive and well.

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 9568
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0,

You might want to recalibrate that moral compass of yours. Tithing is a commandment -- it always has been. For many years, your church was truthful about what it did with the tithing. But it wasn't paid out of the organization's need -- it was a commandment.

Then, rather than telling you the truth about what it was spending tithing on, it began to use some tithing funds for pure wealth accumulation and hid that from you. It began to add weaselly lawyerly disclaimers to tithing slips because it knew that it was hiding the wealth accumulation from you.

It accumulated so much wealth that it was afraid that someone would start paying attention to Ensign Peak's legally required disclosure form, and so it approved of an illegal scheme to hide the wealth accumulation from you. It created shell LLCs in different states so that it would be hard for you to realize they were connected. They asked faithful members to lie to the SEC, telling it that each shell LLC was controlling the money it invested when, in fact, Ensign Peak was controlling it all. And all of your prophets, seers and revelatory signed off on the illegal scheme.

And their purported excuse is they were afraid people would stop paying tithing? Even though tithing has always been a commandment and a necessary condition for admission to the temple? Necessary for salvation? That's how much faith they had in their religion? In their membership?

I don't think so. I think they endorsed the scheme because they knew they weren't being fully honest with the membership about finances. They'd proudly told stories about south americans selling their fillings to pay tithing while they accumulated wealth. They told African countries that they were not a wealthy people, while hiding more wealth than many of those people could ever dream of. They knew it was wrong. The knew it wasn't honest. And, rather than simply come clean at any point in the process, they chose to break the law, create fake investment companies, and lie to the SEC. And they did it so well, they got away with it for years and years.

What's the question you have to answer before you are admitted to the temple: "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man." And what's the standard you hold your leaders to: "did they commit a crime?" Your leaders haven't been temple worthy for a couple of decades. They've been dishonest with their own members and with the SEC. Did anyone withhold temple recommends from them for their dishonesty?

At any point since tithing receipts began to exceed the cost of meetinghouses, temples, and church schools, the leadership had honest options. They could have told the membership that they would begin to save for a rainy day. Or they could have done what Jesus said to do with tithes in the first place -- help the poor. But they didn't have enough faith in their members, their religion, or their God that the faithful would continue to pay tithing as commanded by God unless they accumulated vast wealth, hid it, and ultimately lied about it. I think that's a fair measure of their actual faith.

Mene mene tekel upharsin. Trying to excuse the dishonesty of your leadership makes you sound more like a scientologist than a disciple of Christ.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 5810
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

Post by Moksha »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:28 pm
It began to add weaselly lawyerly disclaimers to tithing slips because it knew that it was hiding the wealth accumulation from you.
Yes, but... what about those situations where an angel is telling you to act weaselly for the Lord, such as in the formulation of apologetics?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 9568
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

Post by Res Ipsa »

Moksha wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:41 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:28 pm
It began to add weaselly lawyerly disclaimers to tithing slips because it knew that it was hiding the wealth accumulation from you.
Yes, but... what about those situations where an angel is telling you to act weaselly for the Lord, such as in the formulation of apologetics?
You'll have to buy my forthcoming(TM) book, "Of Angels and Weasels" to learn the answer.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
User avatar
Doctor Steuss
God
Posts: 1672
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:48 pm

Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

Post by Doctor Steuss »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:42 pm
Moksha wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:41 pm

Yes, but... what about those situations where an angel is telling you to act weaselly for the Lord, such as in the formulation of apologetics?
You'll have to buy my forthcoming(TM) book, "Of Angels and Weasels" to learn the answer.
I look forward to learning of the various lesser-known Enochian angels, such as Weasiel.

(Fun random Enoch angel facts: In the RH Charles translation of the Book of Enoch, one of the angels is named Uzi. There's also an angel of refrigeration.)
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 9568
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

Post by Res Ipsa »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:54 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:42 pm


You'll have to buy my forthcoming(TM) book, "Of Angels and Weasels" to learn the answer.
I look forward to learning of the various lesser-known Enochian angels, such as Weasiel.

(Fun random Enoch angel facts: In the RH Charles translation of the Book of Enoch, one of the angels is named Uzi. There's also an angel of refrigeration.)
Oh, man. I wish I'd known that when my fridge broke down last summer.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 3628
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

Post by MG 2.0 »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 7:28 pm

And their purported excuse is they were afraid people would stop paying tithing? Even though tithing has always been a commandment and a necessary condition for admission to the temple? Necessary for salvation? That's how much faith they had in their religion? In their membership?

I don't think so.
And that’s where I think we can have an honest differing of opinions. And it’s not really a matter of “how much faith they had in their religion? In their membership?”, it’s the knowledge they have of human nature and the rhymes and reasons human beings can find to take an easier path than to obey a law of sacrifice. Admit it, human beings…or at least a whole bunch of them…are greedy little creatures. We want MORE. Wars have been started over greediness and acquisition of hoped for wealth.

Church leaders may very well want members to receive the promised blessings of paying an honest tithe. Even the widow. Of course, Ipsa, that’s all based on belief in a God who can promise blessings in the first place, right? 😉

I think the church leader’s may have had pure motives. I also am open to the fact that things may have spun a bit out of control. One needs to keep in mind that throughout much of its history the church was literally nickel and diming it. In fact, it’s been par for the course until relatively recently. The church has been on its FIRST learning curve in regards as to how to manage large sums of money. Combine that to wanting NEVER to experience the pain experienced in other periods of church history because of financial hardships, and you have a situation where, along with wanting members to continue receiving the blessings of paying an honest tithe, you see THIS.

I think that in a sense the whistle blower was a blessing. It forced the church leaders and financial managers to course correct and accept the possibility that there would have been and will be members that leave because they don’t have a firm testimony of the restoration of the gospel and the blessings that come from paying an honest tithe.

They may have been trying to avoid that or soften the blow. To some extent taking that path may backfire…although, again those that do either leave or go inactive are going to do so out of choice possibly as a result of never having nurtured their testimony of Christ and the restoration of the Kingdom of God on the earth.

It may be interpreted as an other instance of winnowing the wheat from the tares. Apparently the church and its financial advisors may have gone to great lengths to avoid that. As with polygamy and the federal government/Gods law supersedes the laws of man in some instances scenario from the past, they MAY have seen this whole thing as ‘one of those times’. But I don’t know that for sure, obviously. I do like to give them the benefit of a doubt either way. I do believe their main priority is to ‘do good’. And sometimes, like in this instance, it looks bad to some folks.

It will blow over and the church will continue to move on and accomplish its four fold mission. Albeit, minus some folks that decide that it’s not worth staying. And that’s sad.

I agree that the ‘better way’ would have been to simply be up front and honest to begin with and announce the financial reserves and the investments that were paying off.

I’m not sure that I see the problem that you do, however, in the church managing ALL of its income, including the tithes, with the intent to grow it rather than watch it diminish in value.

Regards,
MG
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

Post by malkie »

Is the defence of the church actions that the senior leaders just wanted to trick members into doing the right thing, because otherwise the members could not be trusted to do the right thing for the right reason?

Surely not!

Or is this really the kind of wool-pulling that the Mormon god is OK with? Pretty pathetic, I think. Makes me think of Blaise Pascal.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
User avatar
Doctor Steuss
God
Posts: 1672
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:48 pm

Re: Church comments on SEC settlement

Post by Doctor Steuss »

malkie wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:41 pm
Is the defence of the church actions that the senior leaders just wanted to trick members into doing the right thing, because otherwise the members could not be trusted to do the right thing for the right reason?

Surely not!

Or is this really the kind of wool-pulling that the Mormon god is OK with? Pretty pathetic, I think. Makes me think of Blaise Pascal.
My doctrinal chops are rusty -- I have trouble remembering whose plan it was to subvert agency and faith...
Post Reply