Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

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msnobody
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by msnobody »

Markk wrote:
Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:02 pm
Last night I watched this episode of Mormon Stories. It really brought my journey out of Mormonism around to full circle. I am finding it hard to find a description or words of how this episode made me feel, but I feel like it removed a big piece of the scare and guilt I have from being raised in a lie...a feeling of confirmation that it was worth all the tears, the hurting of family members by telling them truths they did not want to hear, and a selfish feeling of "winning."

There was a moment towards the end when Sandra said, "we won!" Speaking not only of the church having to come clean on the some of the very tough issues, but of the "Anti Women" that lead the charge of helping to make this happen. It was really an awesome moment for me in that my journey started out with "Shadow and Reality" and the Tanners, along with Fawn's Book.

It also painted a very bittersweet picture of Michael Quinn and Leonard Arrington, one that I have never felt in reading about their lives. Michael was truly a walking contradiction.

I really recommend this episode to some of the veterans here, and hope you get the same from it.

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/u ... andestine/
Thank you for the link and recommendation. I listened to it in my way to work this morning.

I’m thankful you watched it and it helped you.
The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession... The LORD set his love on you and chose you... The LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery. Deut. 7
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Markk »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:23 pm
I think you have it right Markk. But it's not to the church's credit since they have been shamed into more open honesty and are grudgingly opening up to the actual truth. They get no credit. It ALL goes to the critics for standing up to the bullies anyway. And, as I say and will say again that just HAS to sting to the apologists. Yet they continue defending the dolts since their imagining the promises of glories in the afterlife is real, all the while seeing all the lies here. The disconnect is so immense with them.

And... AND!!!!! it rang in me during the show and I said so in the comments, just DAYYUM, Sandra is right again as was Gary Bergera that no one has actually refuted Mormonism, Mormonism, Shadow or Reality to any real degree at all and it's been here for over half a century. Let that sink in.
What is interesting...And I don't recall who said it, it may have been Quinn, Palmer or maybe even Bushman, but... whoever it was, said something to the effect that the older GA did not know these truths until the internet started to bring them out in the open. They said they learned them just like us. If that is true, and they are all learning this and digesting this, then I think, or at least hope there is hope for them to come clean. But for some, like Oak's, it is probably just because they have to, it might be different for Uchtdorf, and some of the jr. partners, at least, I hope. Nelson was teaching on the Stone in the hat in 1993, so I am not sure where to put that.

I can remember arguing with you and others on the old boards and you vainly defending the same crap they are, so never say never. :) On the 20th of this month, it will be my 32nd year since I stopped believing, and I wrote a letter to Farm's and Lou Midgley asked me if I left "because of the beer".

What's funny is my wife and I drove up the Utah from So Ca, and my wife and I went to the Lighthouse, and Sandra was there, and I was so blown away at all the information in their store, and seeing a real ex-Mormon, and not a boogie man, I couldn't even bring myself to talk to her. I was shell shocked, my wife did almost all the talking, but I bought my first copy of the "Blue Book," and you are right it has never been disputed, it is still my go to, to get started on a study.

Take care
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Markk »

msnobody wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:50 am
Markk wrote:
Thu Mar 09, 2023 1:02 pm
Last night I watched this episode of Mormon Stories. It really brought my journey out of Mormonism around to full circle. I am finding it hard to find a description or words of how this episode made me feel, but I feel like it removed a big piece of the scare and guilt I have from being raised in a lie...a feeling of confirmation that it was worth all the tears, the hurting of family members by telling them truths they did not want to hear, and a selfish feeling of "winning."

There was a moment towards the end when Sandra said, "we won!" Speaking not only of the church having to come clean on the some of the very tough issues, but of the "Anti Women" that lead the charge of helping to make this happen. It was really an awesome moment for me in that my journey started out with "Shadow and Reality" and the Tanners, along with Fawn's Book.

It also painted a very bittersweet picture of Michael Quinn and Leonard Arrington, one that I have never felt in reading about their lives. Michael was truly a walking contradiction.

I really recommend this episode to some of the veterans here, and hope you get the same from it.

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/u ... andestine/
Thank you for the link and recommendation. I listened to it in my way to work this morning.

I’m thankful you watched it and it helped you.

Thanks...

I have never really studied Arrington at any depth, and it is on my list to do so when I am done with my current read...but from what I have read and heard...he certainly got the shaft. I want to dig in to the "spy ring.
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Res Ipsa »

Markk wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:01 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri Mar 10, 2023 10:23 pm
I think you have it right Markk. But it's not to the church's credit since they have been shamed into more open honesty and are grudgingly opening up to the actual truth. They get no credit. It ALL goes to the critics for standing up to the bullies anyway. And, as I say and will say again that just HAS to sting to the apologists. Yet they continue defending the dolts since their imagining the promises of glories in the afterlife is real, all the while seeing all the lies here. The disconnect is so immense with them.

And... AND!!!!! it rang in me during the show and I said so in the comments, just DAYYUM, Sandra is right again as was Gary Bergera that no one has actually refuted Mormonism, Mormonism, Shadow or Reality to any real degree at all and it's been here for over half a century. Let that sink in.
What is interesting...And I don't recall who said it, it may have been Quinn, Palmer or maybe even Bushman, but... whoever it was, said something to the effect that the older GA did not know these truths until the internet started to bring them out in the open. They said they learned them just like us. If that is true, and they are all learning this and digesting this, then I think, or at least hope there is hope for them to come clean. But for some, like Oak's, it is probably just because they have to, it might be different for Uchtdorf, and some of the jr. partners, at least, I hope. Nelson was teaching on the Stone in the hat in 1993, so I am not sure where to put that.

I can remember arguing with you and others on the old boards and you vainly defending the same crap they are, so never say never. :) On the 20th of this month, it will be my 32nd year since I stopped believing, and I wrote a letter to Farm's and Lou Midgley asked me if I left "because of the beer".

What's funny is my wife and I drove up the Utah from So Ca, and my wife and I went to the Lighthouse, and Sandra was there, and I was so blown away at all the information in their store, and seeing a real ex-Mormon, and not a boogie man, I couldn't even bring myself to talk to her. I was shell shocked, my wife did almost all the talking, but I bought my first copy of the "Blue Book," and you are right it has never been disputed, it is still my go to, to get started on a study.

Take care
That’s a great story, Markk. Some of the older GAs learning about the actual history from the internet sounds pretty plausible to me. I’d have trouble believing that about Oaks and others.

Midgely’s question about beer seems so in character for him that I got a chuckle out of it.

I really regret not making a pilgrimage to the Lighthouse. Mormonism: Shadow or Reality was my final straw, so to speak. For all the nitpicking criticism lobbed at the Book, it’s amazing to me how much of the book turns out to have been on target and is now accepted as fact by the church. The Tanners did me an enormous favor, and I’ll always be grateful to them for that.
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Philo Sofee »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:22 am
Markk wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:01 am


What is interesting...And I don't recall who said it, it may have been Quinn, Palmer or maybe even Bushman, but... whoever it was, said something to the effect that the older GA did not know these truths until the internet started to bring them out in the open. They said they learned them just like us. If that is true, and they are all learning this and digesting this, then I think, or at least hope there is hope for them to come clean. But for some, like Oak's, it is probably just because they have to, it might be different for Uchtdorf, and some of the jr. partners, at least, I hope. Nelson was teaching on the Stone in the hat in 1993, so I am not sure where to put that.

I can remember arguing with you and others on the old boards and you vainly defending the same crap they are, so never say never. :) On the 20th of this month, it will be my 32nd year since I stopped believing, and I wrote a letter to Farm's and Lou Midgley asked me if I left "because of the beer".

What's funny is my wife and I drove up the Utah from So Ca, and my wife and I went to the Lighthouse, and Sandra was there, and I was so blown away at all the information in their store, and seeing a real ex-Mormon, and not a boogie man, I couldn't even bring myself to talk to her. I was shell shocked, my wife did almost all the talking, but I bought my first copy of the "Blue Book," and you are right it has never been disputed, it is still my go to, to get started on a study.

Take care
That’s a great story, Markk. Some of the older GAs learning about the actual history from the internet sounds pretty plausible to me. I’d have trouble believing that about Oaks and others.

Midgely’s question about beer seems so in character for him that I got a chuckle out of it.

I really regret not making a pilgrimage to the Lighthouse. Mormonism: Shadow or Reality was my final straw, so to speak. For all the nitpicking criticism lobbed at the Book, it’s amazing to me how much of the book turns out to have been on target and is now accepted as fact by the church. The Tanners did me an enormous favor, and I’ll always be grateful to them for that.
Yes Res (sorry, couldn't resist! :D ) I'm with ya on the Oaks thought... Tanners also have some interesting materials on the Lucy Mack Smith history book I am looking into...
Markk
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Markk »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:22 am
Markk wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:01 am


What is interesting...And I don't recall who said it, it may have been Quinn, Palmer or maybe even Bushman, but... whoever it was, said something to the effect that the older GA did not know these truths until the internet started to bring them out in the open. They said they learned them just like us. If that is true, and they are all learning this and digesting this, then I think, or at least hope there is hope for them to come clean. But for some, like Oak's, it is probably just because they have to, it might be different for Uchtdorf, and some of the jr. partners, at least, I hope. Nelson was teaching on the Stone in the hat in 1993, so I am not sure where to put that.

I can remember arguing with you and others on the old boards and you vainly defending the same crap they are, so never say never. :) On the 20th of this month, it will be my 32nd year since I stopped believing, and I wrote a letter to Farm's and Lou Midgley asked me if I left "because of the beer".

What's funny is my wife and I drove up the Utah from So Ca, and my wife and I went to the Lighthouse, and Sandra was there, and I was so blown away at all the information in their store, and seeing a real ex-Mormon, and not a boogie man, I couldn't even bring myself to talk to her. I was shell shocked, my wife did almost all the talking, but I bought my first copy of the "Blue Book," and you are right it has never been disputed, it is still my go to, to get started on a study.

Take care
That’s a great story, Markk. Some of the older GAs learning about the actual history from the internet sounds pretty plausible to me. I’d have trouble believing that about Oaks and others.

Midgely’s question about beer seems so in character for him that I got a chuckle out of it.

I really regret not making a pilgrimage to the Lighthouse. Mormonism: Shadow or Reality was my final straw, so to speak. For all the nitpicking criticism lobbed at the Book, it’s amazing to me how much of the book turns out to have been on target and is now accepted as fact by the church. The Tanners did me an enormous favor, and I’ll always be grateful to them for that.

To be 100% accurate about what I said about Lou; it was not actually a letter I wrote to FARMs, but an e-mail from my first computer, a 2nd hand 286 my father-in-law gave us. We had dial up, one of those printers with the paper with the holes you need to tear off.

It was about the time I finally "got it"...I was writing letters to the council of the twelve asking questions, and I sent an email to DCP asking question we would probably laugh at today. Anyways, he wrote me back and said he shared my e-mail and questions to one of his classes and that "they got a laugh"...then Lou sent me the "because of the Beer" response.

I actually received a few letters back from the church, from the executive secretary of the twelve, if I remember correctly his last name was "Hartley," he was probably a 70. The answers were mostly with Ensign or Era pages printed with "answers" highlighted with a highlighter. I remember one question I asked was, "Is there a signed original account of the 11 witnesses?" I received an answer that said that there was not, mice and water damage must have destroyed them.

*8 Years later, or so, I wrote a letter to the 12 asking to have my name removed. I did not want to go through my old stake in that I did not want to hurt my parents. After no luck and several letters, I final wrote back and said if they did not do it, I was going to go to the local newspaper, the "Redlands Daily Facts," and tell my story about trying to get my named removed. Bingo, I received a letter from none-other than, Russel M. Ballard, stating that they normally do not answer letters but that he was going to send it to my SP. I then sent a letter to him to keep it quite because I did not want my parents to know. But a few weeks later I got a call from my dad asking me why I wanted to hurt my mom so much. I am not sure if the SP snitched me out, but some a-hole did.

A sidenote...The church dedicated a Temple in Redlands a few years later, so the church did not want any bad press for sure.
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Moksha »

Markk wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:09 am
I want to dig into the "spy ring".
I think Ernest L. Wilkinson got hepped up on the activities of Sen. Joseph McCarthy and the investigative methods of the Gestapo during WWII. He wanted to recreate them at BYU to insure the purity of the gospel for the thousand-year reign of LDS Church Authorities and Jesus. Thus he created the famous Wilkinson spy ring that permeates BYU culture to this day.
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Res Ipsa »

Markk wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:20 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:22 am
That’s a great story, Markk. Some of the older GAs learning about the actual history from the internet sounds pretty plausible to me. I’d have trouble believing that about Oaks and others.

Midgely’s question about beer seems so in character for him that I got a chuckle out of it.

I really regret not making a pilgrimage to the Lighthouse. Mormonism: Shadow or Reality was my final straw, so to speak. For all the nitpicking criticism lobbed at the Book, it’s amazing to me how much of the book turns out to have been on target and is now accepted as fact by the church. The Tanners did me an enormous favor, and I’ll always be grateful to them for that.
To be 100% accurate about what I said about Lou; it was not actually a letter I wrote to FARMs, but an e-mail from my first computer, a 2nd hand 286 my father-in-law gave us. We had dial up, one of those printers with the paper with the holes you need to tear off.

It was about the time I finally "got it"...I was writing letters to the council of the twelve asking questions, and I sent an email to DCP asking question we would probably laugh at today. Anyways, he wrote me back and said he shared my e-mail and questions to one of his classes and that "they got a laugh"...then Lou sent me the "because of the Beer" response.

I actually received a few letters back from the church, from the executive secretary of the twelve, if I remember correctly his last name was "Hartley," he was probably a 70. The answers were mostly with Ensign or Era pages printed with "answers" highlighted with a highlighter. I remember one question I asked was, "Is there a signed original account of the 11 witnesses?" I received an answer that said that there was not, mice and water damage must have destroyed them.

*8 Years later, or so, I wrote a letter to the 12 asking to have my name removed. I did not want to go through my old stake in that I did not want to hurt my parents. After no luck and several letters, I final wrote back and said if they did not do it, I was going to go to the local newspaper, the "Redlands Daily Facts," and tell my story about trying to get my named removed. Bingo, I received a letter from none-other than, Russel M. Ballard, stating that they normally do not answer letters but that he was going to send it to my SP. I then sent a letter to him to keep it quite because I did not want my parents to know. But a few weeks later I got a call from my dad asking me why I wanted to hurt my mom so much. I am not sure if the SP snitched me out, but some a-hole did.

A sidenote...The church dedicated a Temple in Redlands a few years later, so the church did not want any bad press for sure.
Thanks, Markk, for telling your story. I enjoy reading other people’s stories because it reminds me that the most important thing about the church isn’t the nonsense published in the interpreter, it’s the impact on real people. And the utter lack of basic compassion represented by the old school F.A.R.M.S. crowd is a cancer. When faithful members reach the place you were in - sending e-mails and letters to leadership and academics - they are suffering. Peterson’s mockery and Midgely’s insinuation are inexcusable.

But the worst is the complete disrespect shown with regard to your privacy. I was 19 when I left, and my dad asked me as a favor To stay on the rolls because of hurt that formally leaving would cause his mother. I knew how closely the church tracked members, and I did not trust the church to keep anything confidential, so I waited until she passed before requesting name removal. Even though I didn’t trust them, I never imagined the extent to which the church violated confidences, resulting in inexcusable damage to people and families. Reading other people’s stories was a real eye opener to me.
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Dr Exiled »

Markk wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:20 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:22 am
That’s a great story, Markk. Some of the older GAs learning about the actual history from the internet sounds pretty plausible to me. I’d have trouble believing that about Oaks and others.

Midgely’s question about beer seems so in character for him that I got a chuckle out of it.

I really regret not making a pilgrimage to the Lighthouse. Mormonism: Shadow or Reality was my final straw, so to speak. For all the nitpicking criticism lobbed at the Book, it’s amazing to me how much of the book turns out to have been on target and is now accepted as fact by the church. The Tanners did me an enormous favor, and I’ll always be grateful to them for that.
To be 100% accurate about what I said about Lou; it was not actually a letter I wrote to FARMs, but an e-mail from my first computer, a 2nd hand 286 my father-in-law gave us. We had dial up, one of those printers with the paper with the holes you need to tear off.

It was about the time I finally "got it"...I was writing letters to the council of the twelve asking questions, and I sent an email to DCP asking question we would probably laugh at today. Anyways, he wrote me back and said he shared my e-mail and questions to one of his classes and that "they got a laugh"...then Lou sent me the "because of the Beer" response.

I actually received a few letters back from the church, from the executive secretary of the twelve, if I remember correctly his last name was "Hartley," he was probably a 70. The answers were mostly with Ensign or Era pages printed with "answers" highlighted with a highlighter. I remember one question I asked was, "Is there a signed original account of the 11 witnesses?" I received an answer that said that there was not, mice and water damage must have destroyed them.

*8 Years later, or so, I wrote a letter to the 12 asking to have my name removed. I did not want to go through my old stake in that I did not want to hurt my parents. After no luck and several letters, I final wrote back and said if they did not do it, I was going to go to the local newspaper, the "Redlands Daily Facts," and tell my story about trying to get my named removed. Bingo, I received a letter from none-other than, Russel M. Ballard, stating that they normally do not answer letters but that he was going to send it to my SP. I then sent a letter to him to keep it quite because I did not want my parents to know. But a few weeks later I got a call from my dad asking me why I wanted to hurt my mom so much. I am not sure if the SP snitched me out, but some a-hole did.

A sidenote...The church dedicated a Temple in Redlands a few years later, so the church did not want any bad press for sure.
I am not surprised the SP or someone told your parents. Guilt is a tried and true method of manipulation and has prevented many from straying over the years, I'm sure. So, why not use it here? They had a feeling that supposedly surpasses so-called evidence or questions from apostates like the Tanners. Why not play on family and ridicule (DCP and Midge)? Ends justify means despite temporary harm in their minds.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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Re: Unveiling Dr. Clandestine...full circle completed

Post by Rivendale »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:33 pm
Markk wrote:
Sat Mar 11, 2023 4:20 pm



To be 100% accurate about what I said about Lou; it was not actually a letter I wrote to FARMs, but an e-mail from my first computer, a 2nd hand 286 my father-in-law gave us. We had dial up, one of those printers with the paper with the holes you need to tear off.

It was about the time I finally "got it"...I was writing letters to the council of the twelve asking questions, and I sent an email to DCP asking question we would probably laugh at today. Anyways, he wrote me back and said he shared my e-mail and questions to one of his classes and that "they got a laugh"...then Lou sent me the "because of the Beer" response.

I actually received a few letters back from the church, from the executive secretary of the twelve, if I remember correctly his last name was "Hartley," he was probably a 70. The answers were mostly with Ensign or Era pages printed with "answers" highlighted with a highlighter. I remember one question I asked was, "Is there a signed original account of the 11 witnesses?" I received an answer that said that there was not, mice and water damage must have destroyed them.

*8 Years later, or so, I wrote a letter to the 12 asking to have my name removed. I did not want to go through my old stake in that I did not want to hurt my parents. After no luck and several letters, I final wrote back and said if they did not do it, I was going to go to the local newspaper, the "Redlands Daily Facts," and tell my story about trying to get my named removed. Bingo, I received a letter from none-other than, Russel M. Ballard, stating that they normally do not answer letters but that he was going to send it to my SP. I then sent a letter to him to keep it quite because I did not want my parents to know. But a few weeks later I got a call from my dad asking me why I wanted to hurt my mom so much. I am not sure if the SP snitched me out, but some a-hole did.

A sidenote...The church dedicated a Temple in Redlands a few years later, so the church did not want any bad press for sure.
Thanks, Markk, for telling your story. I enjoy reading other people’s stories because it reminds me that the most important thing about the church isn’t the nonsense published in the interpreter, it’s the impact on real people. And the utter lack of basic compassion represented by the old school F.A.R.M.S. crowd is a cancer. When faithful members reach the place you were in - sending e-mails and letters to leadership and academics - they are suffering. Peterson’s mockery and Midgely’s insinuation are inexcusable.

But the worst is the complete disrespect shown with regard to your privacy. I was 19 when I left, and my dad asked me as a favor To stay on the rolls because of hurt that formally leaving would cause his mother. I knew how closely the church tracked members, and I did not trust the church to keep anything confidential, so I waited until she passed before requesting name removal. Even though I didn’t trust them, I never imagined the extent to which the church violated confidences, resulting in inexcusable damage to people and families. Reading other people’s stories was a real eye opener to me.
Wouldn't the parents know from tithing settlement? Isn't there a children of record spot on that document?
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