Embracing Ignorance

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Some Schmo
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Embracing Ignorance

Post by Some Schmo »

I'm not sure if this video was linked here or not, but since watching it, I've become slightly fixated on its message, which in a nutshell comes down to the right wing not wanting to hear the truth. We know this, because there's no market for it on the right (as Chris Hayes points out in the video).

The right has assumed a particular narrative, which includes the idea that any deviation from their vision of the country will destroy the country. People like this are lunatics. Any extremist is a lunatic. Unbalanced views are invariably wrong.

The biggest clue is in the change in language. The words liberal, progressive, woke, and RINO all mean the same basic things to right wing extremists these days: people they think are destroying the country. It's not enough to have a difference of opinion on policy. To the right, a policy is either helping or DESTROYING!!!! They don't seem to comprehend middle ground. You couldn't get any of them to accurately define compromise.

To me, when I hear words like RINO and woke coming from the right, what I really hear is, "I'm the type of person who embraces ignorance. A conversation with me is useless because I don't deal in facts. I'm driven solely by emotion; intellectual pursuits only get in the way of the fantasy I've invested in. That's why I stick to entertainment for my 'news' (Fox) rather than watching the news."

I have no idea what to do with people who are invested in being stupid. I especially can't understand finding comfort in being angry all the time, especially at things that obviously aren't real.
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Re: Embracing Ignorance

Post by Gunnar »

Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:05 pm
To me, when I hear words like RINO and woke coming from the right, what I really hear is, "I'm the type of person who embraces ignorance. A conversation with me is useless because I don't deal in facts. I'm driven solely by emotion; intellectual pursuits only get in the way of the fantasy I've invested in. That's why I stick to entertainment for my 'news' (Fox) rather than watching the news."

I have no idea what to do with people who are invested in being stupid. I especially can't understand finding comfort in being angry all the time, especially at things that obviously aren't real.
Tragically, there is nothing really new about this, though it seems to becoming ever more pervasive of late. As my favorite author famously said:
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”

― Isaac Asimov
Nowadays the far right pundits amplify that by insisting that "My ignorance is better than your knowledge", like the extreme idiots who freely admit that they have no evidence whatsoever that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. They have only their "gut feelings" and that is all they need!
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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Some Schmo
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Re: Embracing Ignorance

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Gunnar wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:03 pm
Tragically, there is nothing really new about this, though it seems to becoming ever more pervasive of late.
Here's what's strange about it. I only really experience this kind of thing online. People don't talk politics much and it seems to me most people try to be friendly by default. If they're thinking about how all liberals are trying to destroy America (or whatever), they're hiding it well.

And I think a lot of people must be hiding it well. How does Fox have such a large audience if there aren't a lot of people who desire to be fed BS?
Nowadays the far right pundits amplify that by insisting that "My ignorance is better than your knowledge", like the extreme idiots who freely admit that they have no evidence whatsoever that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. They have only their "gut feelings" and that is all they need!
It's worse than ignorance, really. It's people seeking to be mislead by ignoring facts. It's not just a matter of them not knowing, it's them thinking they know when they don't. It's all part of buying into a false narrative that is only believed because it feels good.
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Re: Embracing Ignorance

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It occurs to me that Fox is basically religious programming (in a couple senses of the word). What they're selling is religion. How damned insidious to call that "news." It's more like "the good news." Have you heard the good news?

And of course, it's anything but good or news.

I'm not sure why it took so long for me to realize it.
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Vēritās
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Re: Embracing Ignorance

Post by Vēritās »

Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:21 pm
It occurs to me that Fox is basically religious programming (in a couple senses of the word). What they're selling is religion. How damned insidious to call that "news." It's more like "the good news." Have you heard the good news?

And of course, it's anything but good or news.

I'm not sure why it took so long for me to realize it.
The revelations over the past year have vindicated so, so much of what I've been saying for at least a decade now.

In that thread I argued that FOX should not be allowed to call itself news. I really don't know why this is so controversial. Why are they given equal time to question the President when they're strictly propaganda? Freedom of speech? BS, can I ask the President questions? Can any outlet calling itself news make it to that platform to ask the President questions. No. So why not? Obviously there are standards already in place. All I'm saying is that we tweak them to exclude the bogus outlets pretending to be news instead of just those outlets deemed to small or inconsequential.

This isn't even debatable anymore. Too many legit journalists have left FOX News and spoken out about how it is strictly propaganda and the executives always give preference to the propaganda wing over the hard news.
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Re: Embracing Ignorance

Post by Alphus and Omegus »

Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:21 pm
It occurs to me that Fox is basically religious programming (in a couple senses of the word). What they're selling is religion. How damned insidious to call that "news." It's more like "the good news." Have you heard the good news?

And of course, it's anything but good or news.

I'm not sure why it took so long for me to realize it.
It is absolutely religious programming. Only delusional fundamentalists think that it tells the truth. Here is a Fox host literally asking Trump how to pray for him:

https://Twitter.com/atrupar/status/1244614734424543233

I'm sure she was never interested in praying for Barack Obama.
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Re: Embracing Ignorance

Post by honorentheos »

Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:14 pm
Here's what's strange about it. I only really experience this kind of thing online. People don't talk politics much and it seems to me most people try to be friendly by default. If they're thinking about how all liberals are trying to destroy America (or whatever), they're hiding it well.
Back in January I had reason to make a business-related road trip with a gentleman I had been introduced to the year before. He is in a second career phase of life, so in the Fox News target demographic. When we were introduced we found much we held in common regarding literature and what I thought was a culturally cosmopolitan worldview.

So for this occasion we decided to drive together for a four hour trip to speak with new clients. I had brought him in to provide value-added services and he had helped win the work.

The trip started well enough with the conversation ranging over books we'd both read, our various experiences in other countries, and a chat about the direction China was heading. My first indication we may have more differences than I anticipate came from a rather innocuous observation about travel distance after another driver did something that made it relevant. I mentioned having received one speeding ticket for going 46 in a 40, and in the class to get the points removed I was surprised by how many people didn't know the right answer to the question about what the correct following distance actually was. He jumped in with a statement about it being some number of car lengths. I was slightly surprised first by the certitude followed closely by it being wrong in method. But assuming he had probably not thought about it in years (did I mention he's old enough to be retired?) I offered while that seemed likely close in some circumstances the answer was a number of seconds not a physical distance so maybe four car lengths on a slower road. He pushed back, which is what really surprised me but I dropped it. I was driving, anyway.

This proved to be the first, and most mild surprise though. During the rest of the trip there I learned:

- Woke attitudes were destroying the country.
- Putin had been antagonized into attacking Ukraine by NATO.
- The people of the US needed to wake up and overthrow the draconian political class in league with the oligarchy.
- Dude with a retirement nest egg that allows him to summer in Austria for months thinks we need to reshuffle the cards because everything everywhere was out to take from him.

There was more. It turned into an interesting ride for all the wrong reasons. My approach was to ask questions with follow up questions, then to offer counter points in a way that said, "I can see how it might look that way because of x, y, z, but if we take ABC into account..."

About an hour out I changed the subject to the most neutral topic I could think of. It was clear we sat on opposite sides of many very significant issues. That wasn't to say we became antagonists but it clearly reframed almost everything about our relationship. I ended up surprised by how openly he assumed his views were universal but also realized I was guilty of assuming because of his traveling and cultural interests he was likely to have more progressive views. Turned out he was primarily motivated by a disturbingly entitled belief that society gave but ought not to expect back anything but his wisdom and expertise. He was as populist as Culty. He chaffed at my suggestion that he and I would almost certain come out worse off if his desired revolt against the government happened. He rejected my view that democracy hinged on opportunity that was not equally distributed but each generation ought to due what it could to better realize that goal. He really didn't agree with my arguments about Putin being an authoritarian killer whose training in propaganda warfare ought to give anyone pause who thought about what he said versus what he was doing.

It was no longer a surprise when, while checking it at a hotel, he commented to the front desk staff he wished Prince Harry and Megan Markle would shut up already with their woke agenda pushing just because they were on a TV nearby.

It was... unpleasant.

But we found narrow places of common ground and efforts to be focus on the work and what we had brought for this client, made a good effort with them which I think went well, and drove home with significantly less banter and no deeper conversations.

So I guess I don't know where I was going with that. Maybe that it could be a blessing if folks keep the crazy undercover for their meet ups.
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Re: Embracing Ignorance

Post by Dr Exiled »

Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:14 pm
Gunnar wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:03 pm
Tragically, there is nothing really new about this, though it seems to becoming ever more pervasive of late.
Here's what's strange about it. I only really experience this kind of thing online. People don't talk politics much and it seems to me most people try to be friendly by default. If they're thinking about how all liberals are trying to destroy America (or whatever), they're hiding it well.

And I think a lot of people must be hiding it well. How does Fox have such a large audience if there aren't a lot of people who desire to be fed B.S.?
Nowadays the far right pundits amplify that by insisting that "My ignorance is better than your knowledge", like the extreme idiots who freely admit that they have no evidence whatsoever that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. They have only their "gut feelings" and that is all they need!
It's worse than ignorance, really. It's people seeking to be mislead by ignoring facts. It's not just a matter of them not knowing, it's them thinking they know when they don't. It's all part of buying into a false narrative that is only believed because it feels good.
Here are the February 2023 Nielson ratings. I was surprised at how little the Fox audience actually was. We have a country of 330 million and Fox News averaged a paltry 2.26 million per day in primetime. https://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/here-ar ... 23/524861/

I think people are doing other things and that is probably why they seem to be "hiding" it from your perspective. Contrast that with the NFL that averaged 16.7 million per regular season game. https://www.statista.com/statistics/289 ... ewers-usa/

Maybe social media should be the focus here instead of fox news? Facebook has 2.9 billion monthly active users. WhatsApp, Messenger and Instagram each have over 1 billion active users per month. https://www.statista.com/statistics/272 ... -of-users/
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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Re: Embracing Ignorance

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honerentheos wrote:So I guess I don't know where I was going with that. Maybe that it could be a blessing if folks keep the crazy undercover for their meet ups.
Sounds like this guy would get along with my right-wing friend. He goes off in his motorhome all the time and makes many friends with fellow campers, and keeps in contact. I've never heard him say he ran into a liberal while out camping, it's always guys like him.

I have to give him some credit though, so far he hasn't fallen for the Putin worship or it's Nato's fault etc.
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Re: Embracing Ignorance

Post by honorentheos »

Gadianton wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:21 am
honerentheos wrote:So I guess I don't know where I was going with that. Maybe that it could be a blessing if folks keep the crazy undercover for their meet ups.
Sounds like this guy would get along with my right-wing friend. He goes off in his motorhome all the time and makes many friends with fellow campers, and keeps in contact. I've never heard him say he ran into a liberal while out camping, it's always guys like him.

I have to give him some credit though, so far he hasn't fallen for the Putin worship or it's Nato's fault etc.
Sounds like.

In this gent's case I think I recognized the threads that tied his views together given the three hours or so that we were discussing these topics. His early life included traveling the world on the cheap, literally. He wasn't particularly fond of the United States and held what I'd best describe as continentalist views. His yearly stays in Austria include ties with fairly bougie Europeans who can best be described as against almost everything, but know their wines, their operas, and how to turn on the charm. His Putin stance is less pro-Putin and more anti-Imperial and liberal American. But it's all informed by Putin-friendly sources because that's what isn't mainstream media which is the main requirement for something to be news.

It reminded me that I should look into what the term ought to be for a person who proclaims themselves to be primarily libertarian who ends up just knowing a word that makes it sound like they have political views when what they really have is intensely myopic self-interest.
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