Secular folks should worry.

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Rivendale
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Rivendale »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:10 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:52 am
Taking a step back, much of the focus in this thread has been on Gen Z's attributes and behaviors. But what about the other side of the equation? What constitutes "civil society"?
I’m currently watching the “Age of Easy Money” by Frontline, and let me tell you something. Morality and civil society is an illusion. The gravest sins aren’t being committed by irreligious GenZ’ers attending drag queen shows and getting tattoos. They’re being committed by Boomers in suits playing fast and loose with what is essentially the lives of sheep being fleeced.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/docu ... asy-money/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpMLAQbSYAw

Someone like MG, who can look at what his “church” is doing with their “sacred tithing funs” and only shrug, or worse clap happily, is so devoid of morality that it’s laughable. That old fool kvetching about a younger generation while his generation robs us blind with actions meant to keep us snowed is perfect. Just perfect.

- Doc
This comment from r/Mormon is an example of the kind of world view some Mormons have.
The student at BYU who came out as gay in a commencement speech deserved to be "picked on". Of course, his generation thinks its cool to be disrespectful.
Dr Exiled
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

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Maybe here is another scenario to think how cojcolds should be treated? Imagine a local county meeting where cojcolds believes it has a seat at the counsel table and doesn't realize it's been voted out, by an overwhelming margin. Security is called and the chair publicly thanks cojcolds for its time and motions for it to sit in the back where a seat is reserved for it. We've moved on says the chair. Thanks for your input and now its time you listen for a change instead of pretending to know what's best for us.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Kishkumen »

I'd say that civil society is at risk today -- not just down the road. Part of that problem is those who purport to be Christians, and yet build communities powered by hate of the other. MG 2.0 has already told those of us who are not people of faith that we are the agents of the adversary. He has staked me and others out as his enemies in the existential battle he imagines is going on. That's not building civil society. The self-proclaimed Christian politicians like the MTGs and the Bohberts are not promoting civil society; they are promoting hatred and division.
Yes, that is definitely part of the problem. One of my principal takeaways from the movie “Jesus Camp” was that *some* so-called Christians seem to have a kind of ghoulish envy of Islamic extremist terrorists. At the same time, I think it is fair to point out that not everyone is eager to embrace the reconfiguration of gender and family relationships. I am not pointing this out because I agree with them. I am pointing them out because I take them seriously when they get worked up on account of their fear of these things. No society can easily accommodate points of view that are so radically different. We have lost too much of our former common ground.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
MG 2.0
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:05 pm
You have got to love the irony of a member of the mega rich LDS church, which is hoarding billions of dollars, arguing that secular people are less charitable.
That’s not actually the point of the Deseret News article or the point that I’ve been trying to make.

I’m sure there are many secular folks that make charitable contributions.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Dr Exiled »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:39 pm
Fence Sitter wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:05 pm
You have got to love the irony of a member of the mega rich LDS church, which is hoarding billions of dollars, arguing that secular people are less charitable.
That’s not actually the point of the Deseret News article or the point that I’ve been trying to make.

I’m sure there are many secular folks that make charitable contributions.

Regards,
MG
I think that is your point. Here is your opening post:
Last weekend on the Deseret News I came across the following article:

https://www.deseret.com/2023/3/4/236171 ... es-charity

You can also read it here:

https://www.aei.org/articles/perspectiv ... -of-faith/

The interesting thing to me is something that I’ve intuitively deduced over time. It is this (from the article):


Gen Z is the nation’s least religious generation, with about a third having no religion — about the same proportion as among millennials — compared with 23%, 17% and 11% among, respectively, Generation X, baby boomers and the Silent Generation.

and this:


The data show that religious younger Americans are more than twice as likely to do community work as their nonreligious Gen Z counterparts. Half of religious Gen Zers report volunteering in the community often or very often, compared to 30% of slightly religious Gen Zers and just 21% of not religious Gen Zers.

Being involved with community groups — such as sports or social clubs — shows an even bigger difference between the very religious and not religious, with 46% of the very religious regularly being part of community groups, compared to just 16 % of those who are not religious.

As for charitable donations, the same pattern emerges once again, with fully half of very religious Gen Zers contributing often or very often, while 29% of slightly religious and just 17% of nonreligious Gen Zers do the same.

The article as a whole seems to paint a rather dismal portrait of what is to come unless more younger people come to Christ and/or participate in religious activity of some sort that promotes community values of charity/giving beyond one’s self.

Regards,
MG
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
MG 2.0
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

Morley wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:11 pm

There are hundreds of millions of "less government" types who still don't think that relying on a democratic government to make laws that rectify justice and fairness issues is dangerous. Dangerous?
In the language that you are expressing this point we are in agreement.

What I’m wary of is the gradual increase in power and authority of the federal government. The military industrial complex…and other ‘complexes’ that dictate ‘truth’ and then expect the populace to simply ‘kick in’ and do their bidding. Government isn’t meant, at least in the minds of the founders, to have power over every aspect of our lives.

GenZ seems to not have issues, at least in some respects (especially along the cultural spectrum), in letting and even forcing the government (NGO pressures, lobbying efforts, think tanks, etc.) to bend and then dictate their liberal and neomarxist views upon the rest of the nation.

Over time, if successful, religion could end up taking a back seat to the dictates of centralized government…with the complete approbation of a large segment of society.

GenZ could very well be the beginnings of that cultural and governmental shift.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
MG
MG 2.0
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by MG 2.0 »

malkie wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:13 pm
After 10 pages, here's what I'm getting, mostly from the religionist side - simplified, of course:
  • there's a growing problem in society that would be fixed if more younger people come to Christ and/or participate in religious activity of some sort that promotes community values of charity/giving beyond one’s self
  • here are some examples of how one religious individual has promoted community values of charity/giving beyond one’s self
  • that religious person would likely have done the same if he had not been religious
  • however, the examples that people see (the "fruits", if you like) of religion seem to be putting people off religion
  • somehow, all of this is the fault of the non-religious
  • anyway, non-religious people are not as good as religious people, because non-religious people don't have fear of god to keep them in line
Truth mixed in with fiction and/or soundbites. This is often the course taken when someone wants to carry a point without really getting into the meat of things.

First bullet point: true
Second: OK
Third: Probably, but it’s difficult to know. And over a generation or two it becomes even more difficult to ascertain.
Fourth: that’s a mixed bag. Institutional structures have steadily been taking a beating. Bad actors have not helped. But true principles contained within religious systems are then thrown out with the bathwater. Secularism takes its place. It then becomes a question of ‘fruits’ over the long haul between the principles at the core of religion or the fruits of philosophical systems of belief that take God out of the picture.
Fifth: that’s more complicated than a simple sentence/soundbite. The fault can be spread around.
Sixth: this also becomes rather more complicated/complex than a simple soundbite. For one thing, the “fear of God” may mean something different to a nonbeliever than a believer. And then among believers there will also be differing viewpoints on the same. Then we have to define ‘good’. That becomes a mixed bag too.

But I understand that this list is what ONE person is getting from the Deseret News article and the ensuing conversation. All views are of course welcome.

The point of the article is that we ALL ought to have some concern about whether or not we’re heading in the ‘right’ direction as far as civil society is concerned. Whether or not GenZ has a certain trajectory rather and/or over another. And the definition of ‘right’ is going to vary on whether or not one is neoliberal, neomarxist, libertarian, conservative, green activist, atheist, Christian/religionist of another stripe…and the list goes on.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by dastardly stem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:00 pm
drumdude wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:13 pm


In the summer of 2020, we had riots in the streets and buildings burning, while a global pandemic raged on and killed millions.

In the spring of 2021, we had rioters storming the capitol to stop a Presidential election.

In the spring of 2022, Russia invaded a neighbor starting the biggest war in Europe since WWII.

In the spring of 2023, we're complaining about the price of eggs while arguing from the comfort of our thousand dollar iPads.

Civil society seems (to me) remarkably strong and our way of life has barely changed at all even in the face of these unprecedented events.
Family values and structures have radically changed. Views of morality with GenZ are continuing a radical change in regards to honesty/lying and what used to be considered moral behavior.
How Faith Impacts Gen Z’s Views of Morality
Engaged Christian teens (see definition below) are a stark contrast to their peers on moral issues. There are significant gaps between their beliefs and all others, including other churchgoing teens, suggesting that church attendance alone does not transmit more traditionally orthodox views. For instance, engaged Christians are more than twice as likely to say that lying is wrong (77%) compared to their churched counterparts (38%), and almost four times more likely than those who claim no faith (20%).

The belief that lying is morally wrong is the most commonly shared moral sentiment among the faith segments, alongside marriage as a lifelong commitment between a man and a woman. The greatest differences surround sexuality. For instance, more than three-quarters of engaged Christians believe sex before marriage (76%) and homosexual behavior are morally wrong (77%), compared to only fractions of those with no faith (5% and 4% respectively) and one-quarter of churched Christians (25% and 24% respectively).

https://www.barna.com/research/gen-z-morality/
Disclaimer, this is written/researched and published by religionists.

Secularism, as I’ve said, is not ‘tried and true’ in regards to guiding humanity towards a place where moral values…such as honesty and fidelity…are in the top tier of those things which are truly important. It becomes a world of relativism.

The danger is the breakdown of a cohesive civil society where most people can be trusted to do the right things for the right reasons. We are looking at a future where moral bankruptcy is ‘a thing’, even much more so than what we’re already seeing.

GenZ is much more willing to let government leaders make the decisions as to what is right and wrong. And they find support among many millennials.

That’s dangerous.

Regards,
MG
MG. I want to point out. You started this thread pointing to an article which summed up a survey stating something which is not at all found in the survey results in order to make a point. so the whole basis of your thread failed from the start. Now you have quoted a study that says:
]For instance, engaged Christians are more than twice as likely to say that lying is wrong (77%) compared to their churched counterparts (38%), and almost four times more likely than those who claim no faith (20%)
How could anyone take that seriously? You have to wonder what question was asked of 13-18 year olds to get these results. I looked for the questions and the data but for some reason, like the previous survey you listed, they are not sharing that. How can anyone take the results of a survey seriously when the data, methodology is not shared?

Was the question, is it wrong to lie no matter the context or something? You have to wonder what loaded wording was used to get 80% of no faith kids to say it's not wrong to lie. Or how could engaged Christian kids think its not wrong to lie at a 23% clip?

I would suggest, if you want to make an effective point, check your sources. your whole point you wished to make to start this thread is nonsense due to your use of terrible sources.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:10 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:52 am
Taking a step back, much of the focus in this thread has been on Gen Z's attributes and behaviors. But what about the other side of the equation? What constitutes "civil society"?
I’m currently watching the “Age of Easy Money” by Frontline, and let me tell you something. Morality and civil society is an illusion. The gravest sins aren’t being committed by irreligious GenZ’ers attending drag queen shows and getting tattoos. They’re being committed by Boomers in suits playing fast and loose with what is essentially the lives of sheep being fleeced.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/docu ... asy-money/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpMLAQbSYAw

Someone like MG, who can look at what his “church” is doing with their “sacred tithing funs” and only shrug, or worse clap happily, is so devoid of morality that it’s laughable. That old fool kvetching about a younger generation while his generation robs us blind with actions meant to keep us snowed is perfect. Just perfect.

- Doc
It should be noted not once, not one time, have we seen MG express concern with the power, control, influence, and money the Q15 wields over his life and those who aren’t Mormon. Here he is making an enemy of kids while his preferred system of control ran by his preferred type of men in suits runs roughshod over anything that stands in their way. His moral compass is absolutely hollow.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Morley
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Re: Secular folks should worry.

Post by Morley »

Morley wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:11 pm
There are hundreds of millions of "less government" types who still don't think that relying on a democratic government to make laws that rectify justice and fairness issues is dangerous. Dangerous?
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:51 pm
In the language that you are expressing this point we are in agreement.

What I’m wary of is the gradual increase in power and authority of the federal government. The military industrial complex…and other ‘complexes’ that dictate ‘truth’ and then expect the populace to simply ‘kick in’ and do their bidding. Government isn’t meant, at least in the minds of the founders, to have power over every aspect of our lives.
If you mean the evils of government regulating sexual behavior, whom someone should be able to marry, and what a woman does with her own reproductive system, I'm with you.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:51 pm
GenZ seems to not have issues, at least in some respects (especially along the cultural spectrum), in letting and even forcing the government (NGO pressures, lobbying efforts, think tanks, etc.) to bend and then dictate their liberal and neomarxist views upon the rest of the nation.
No idea what you're talking about. Please list some these "liberal and neo-Marxist views" you're so afraid of.

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:51 pm
Over time, if successful, religion could end up taking a back seat to the dictates of centralized government…with the complete approbation of a large segment of society.

GenZ could very well be the beginnings of that cultural and governmental shift.

From your lips to God's ears. Folks in Iran went from a pretty secular society back to one run by the mullahs. Things are not going well for them. The majority there wish they could once again get religion to take a backseat to the dictates of government.
Last edited by Morley on Fri Mar 17, 2023 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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