Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

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dastardly stem
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by dastardly stem »

JohnW wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:20 am
Yeah, the power comes from trusting him enough to learn the lessons he has for us. When we learn those lessons, we become more adept at living life. If God weren't involved in our lives, then there wouldn't be any power to be had from that trust because there are no lessons being taught.
So what power do believers have that is lacking in nonbelievers? If there is no difference what is the power to n believing in God?
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by malkie »

dastardly stem wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:00 am
JohnW wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:20 am
Yeah, the power comes from trusting him enough to learn the lessons he has for us. When we learn those lessons, we become more adept at living life. If God weren't involved in our lives, then there wouldn't be any power to be had from that trust because there are no lessons being taught.
So what power do believers have that is lacking in nonbelievers? If there is no difference what is the power to n believing in God?
From the inside, the inscrutable god is in control, and all is well, because faith results in a power that has to be felt to be understood, and it is felt only by believers.

From the outside, it's smoke & mirrors; fake it till you make it; indistinguishable from no god at all.
"Being God is hard work. You know you’ve done your job right when no one is quite sure if you’ve done anything at all." - drumdude
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by huckelberry »

dastardly stem wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 2:58 am
JohnW wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:18 am

I'm not sure I follow you here. Yes, I think we sometimes feel like we have free will and can choose anything we want, but also, at times, circumstances just plain exist and limit our choices. I don't think it is all that different for God. Yes, he would love to save everyone, but when dealing with other individuals with free will, sometimes circumstances just don't make that possible.

My son is off at college. I am happy to give him advice. I'm happy to help him. I don't really need to punish him. If he were to make dumb choices, the natural consequences would be punishment enough. I can't really dictate what he does with his life. It is really up to him. Also, I definitely don't want him to come home and feed me grapes (smily face). I want him to become an upstanding adult with a successful happy life. I suspect the same is true of God.
But if god is all knowing and all benevolent, whatever those actually mean, the outcome would be exactly what he wants. If people don’t choose him, he’s the only one who knows why. Or if everyone can potentially know him, only he knows what inspiration or what information each person needs. But apparently he chooses not to sufficiently inspire or inform many. I say apparently because he intends plenty to end up in outer darkness or even the Telestial kingdom. Coorect?
stem,
You could be simply wrong in this idea that god intends plenty to end up in outer darkness. You picture god as devoid of love and just tricking people in order to injure them.
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by malkie »

huckelberry wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:07 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 2:58 am


But if god is all knowing and all benevolent, whatever those actually mean, the outcome would be exactly what he wants. If people don’t choose him, he’s the only one who knows why. Or if everyone can potentially know him, only he knows what inspiration or what information each person needs. But apparently he chooses not to sufficiently inspire or inform many. I say apparently because he intends plenty to end up in outer darkness or even the Telestial kingdom. Coorect?
stem,
You could be simply wrong in this idea that god intends plenty to end up in outer darkness. You picture god as devoid of love and just tricking people in order to injure them.
Is there good reason to picture god in some other way?

As far as I can see, we really have no idea what god is like, so any picture is likely to be as good as any other.
"Being God is hard work. You know you’ve done your job right when no one is quite sure if you’ve done anything at all." - drumdude
dastardly stem
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by dastardly stem »

huckelberry wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:07 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 2:58 am


But if god is all knowing and all benevolent, whatever those actually mean, the outcome would be exactly what he wants. If people don’t choose him, he’s the only one who knows why. Or if everyone can potentially know him, only he knows what inspiration or what information each person needs. But apparently he chooses not to sufficiently inspire or inform many. I say apparently because he intends plenty to end up in outer darkness or even the Telestial kingdom. Coorect?
stem,
You could be simply wrong in this idea that god intends plenty to end up in outer darkness. You picture god as devoid of love and just tricking people in order to injure them.
I suppose we can treat mormonisms outer darkness as traditionally Christian’s hell. If god does not intend to send plenty to hell or OD, why are there such places and why have both factions of Christianity understood many will be sent to these places? As I’ve asked and alluded to before Jesus himself tells us many believers are ignored by him, as he suggests he never knew them. And I think the point remains. If god wishes to bless believers knows precisely what it’d take to get each person to believe and chooses to leave many others n unbelief then apparently he chooses not to bless many.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
huckelberry
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by huckelberry »

dastardly stem wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:46 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 5:07 pm
stem,
You could be simply wrong in this idea that god intends plenty to end up in outer darkness. You picture god as devoid of love and just tricking people in order to injure them.
I suppose we can treat mormonisms outer darkness as traditionally Christian’s hell. If god does not intend to send plenty to hell or OD, why are there such places and why have both factions of Christianity understood many will be sent to these places? As I’ve asked and alluded to before Jesus himself tells us many believers are ignored by him, as he suggests he never knew them. And I think the point remains. If god wishes to bless believers knows precisely what it’d take to get each person to believe and chooses to leave many others n unbelief then apparently he chooses not to bless many.
Stem, I am finding myself enjoying Jared Diamond's book "Upheaval" Concerning Chile and Pinochet I read the following p155:"Neither his fellow junta members nor the CIA nor anyone else anticipated Pinochet's ruthlessness, his strong leadership and his ability to cling to power at the same time as he continued to project an image of himself as a benign old man and devout Catholic, depicted by the state controlled media with his children and going to church. The barbaric deeds that happened in Chile after September 11, 1973 cannot be understood without recognizing the role of Pinochet."

There are of course milder versions of this same pious image masking dangerous self interest. It is a clear human problem which I feel sure is what Jesus was speaking of with the phrase, "I never knew you , away evil doers"

It may be that for some that away is a terminal judgement. I do not see that as a sure thing but there are evil doers which are lost to all of my understanding. I see no reason to think that represents helter skelter crowds of confused or ordinary humans.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

JohnW wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:09 am
Wonhyo wrote:
Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:10 pm
Miracles are hard to come by in the present era, and Mormons are now accustomed to an evolution of sorts in the kinds of miracles available. For example, instead of the miracle of healing through faith and priesthood blessings, apostles now tell stories of having the faith not to be healed through priesthood blessings.
The talk you are referencing by E. Bednar is one of my favorites. Having the faith to not be healed is an extremely important thing. Of course, I can see how it wouldn't really do much to convince non-believers, which I'm certain wasn't his intent.

I posted some comments in msnobody's thread about spiritual gifts that are germane to this thread as well. I personally think this is a much more complex topic than just dismissing that miracles don't happen in the church. Of course, I don't think I could really put together an argument that would be satisfying to this group. I guess I am just meekly stating that I disagree without the ability to do much about it. Probably a little pitiful, but hey, we all have our place in the world (insert smily face).
32 AD

> JohnW watching Jesus bless and not heal a leper

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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

32 AD


John being overwhelmed by the Spirit watching Jesus not raise Lazarus from the dead:
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JohnW
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by JohnW »

dastardly stem wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 2:58 am
JohnW wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:18 am

I'm not sure I follow you here. Yes, I think we sometimes feel like we have free will and can choose anything we want, but also, at times, circumstances just plain exist and limit our choices. I don't think it is all that different for God. Yes, he would love to save everyone, but when dealing with other individuals with free will, sometimes circumstances just don't make that possible.

My son is off at college. I am happy to give him advice. I'm happy to help him. I don't really need to punish him. If he were to make dumb choices, the natural consequences would be punishment enough. I can't really dictate what he does with his life. It is really up to him. Also, I definitely don't want him to come home and feed me grapes (smily face). I want him to become an upstanding adult with a successful happy life. I suspect the same is true of God.
But if god is all knowing and all benevolent, whatever those actually mean, the outcome would be exactly what he wants. If people don’t choose him, he’s the only one who knows why. Or if everyone can potentially know him, only he knows what inspiration or what information each person needs. But apparently he chooses not to sufficiently inspire or inform many. I say apparently because he intends plenty to end up in outer darkness or even the Telestial kingdom. Coorect?
I thought this was only the case with the full trifecta of traits. The problem of evil only is a problem with all three. If God is all-knowing and all-benevolent but not omnipotent, he can want people to be saved and be unable to save some of them. This is the Latter-day Saint version of God. He is limited in who he can save. I know this sometimes makes members uncomfortable, but our theology does not preach strict omnipotence. We are happy with something less than that. As I recall, we discussed this some time back.
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JohnW
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Re: Modern Miracles - David McKay's "Gift of Tongues"

Post by JohnW »

dastardly stem wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 3:00 am
JohnW wrote:
Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:20 am
Yeah, the power comes from trusting him enough to learn the lessons he has for us. When we learn those lessons, we become more adept at living life. If God weren't involved in our lives, then there wouldn't be any power to be had from that trust because there are no lessons being taught.
So what power do believers have that is lacking in nonbelievers? If there is no difference what is the power to n believing in God?
Yeah, this is a difficult question to answer. I think the only ones who can answer this (and only for themselves) are those who have lived both lives. They have lived with God and without or vice versa. They have experienced both sides and have chosen to live their life with God (or without). I don't think there is an easy answer.
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