Secular folks should worry.

[MG 2.0]

…fear and hatred of your fellow humans permeates your worldview.

My word. How could I even live with myself if this was true? I’ve spent my life trying to follow the teachings of Christ. Even when I didn’t believe. I’ve never been on a ‘hate train’. Where have I even given any indication that I hate you or any other human beings? I may dislike what they represent. But that’s a whole other thing.

Here's how I think a person interested in promoting civil society would approach the library book issue you described. The vast majority of people would agree that not all books that have ever been and will ever be written are appropriate for a public elementary school's library. Also, it is not possible to stock every elementary school library with every book ever written, someone must decide which books will be contained in the library. We call them librarians.

Each librarian is a person, and although they educate themselves about children's literature, they are individuals who will make different decisions about which books to include in a library. Some books may be in nearly every library, while others may not.

A librarian being a human being, it is entirely foreseeable that they may include a book in an elementary school library that is inappropriate. In a civil society, someone who thinks a book in the library is not appropriate would raise the issue with the librarian, explaining why they thought the book is in appropriate and asking why the librarian selected the book to be in the library. That gives both individuals the chance to hear what the other person has to say and perhaps resolve the issue through mutual agreement. If not, there is a person who is in charge of the school, who we call a principal, who can get input from interested parties and decide the issue. And from there, one could go to the school board, the state's education department, or even the legislature. In a civil society, at each stage of discussion, there would an opportunity for discussion, including listening to and taking into consideration the viewpoints of others.

One could label this the "running to government" approach. It seeks to deprive each student of the school of the ability to check out the book from the library.

This is a reasonable path to take. Democracy at work.

Another approach would be for a parent to take interest in the books that their child checks out and reads from the library and discuss it with them. They could even require their child to let the parent read a library book before the child reads it. If the parent becomes aware of a title that they do not want their child to read, they can tell the child.

Or they could send their child to another school or even home school.

One could label this the "self-reliant" approach. The parent takes responsibility for what their child reads and works with the child to make sure the child only reads "appropriate" books. The solution to the problem does not involve depriving anyone else's liberty or freedom.

But the pornography then still makes its home in the library where innocent children have access to it without their parent’s permission. You did look at the content of these books, right?

And there a host of other solutions that people interested in promoting civil society could arrive at that would allow the library to provide a wide range of reading materials while still allowing parents to exercise the degree of control over their children's reading that they choose.

In a civil society, we would call this "solving a problem." Disagreements between or among people will arise in a civil society. A civil society should anticipate that those disagreement will arise and provides mechanisms to resolve them.

This is what has been occurring.

However, that requires an understanding by the citizens of a civil society that they will not always get their way in any disagreement and agree that having a civil society is more important than winning any specific disagreement. above all, a person who supports civil society does not respond to not getting their way by trying to destroy the very things that allow a civil society to exist.

So pornography’s existence on the shelves of schools where young people attend is the solution to having a civil society?

Here is what a person who believes in and promotes civil society would not do with a disagreement over library books: whip up an angry mob to try and intimidate librarians and other school officials into getting their way.

That’s called democracy.

They would not not make anonymous threats to the life and safety of librarians, teachers or principals.

I agree. Just as I’m sure you would agree that the attacks on Women’s Centers that help and provide ways for pregnant women to carry their babies to full term would be comparable. Physical attacks and/or damage to a person or place of legal business are never warranted in a civil society.

They would not engage in histrionics to inflate the types of disagreements we should expect to arise in civil society into extential crises that amount to declaring war (holy or cultural) against those with different points of view.

GreenPeace and BLM comes to mind along with many other examples in which human beings become highly agitated and either attack verbally and/or physically those that disagree with them. It’s never the right thing to do.

You aren't just waging war against ideas floating around in the ether. You are waging war on fellow humans, flesh and blood people just like yourself, and the harm I described above is a direct consequence of your holy war.

I’m disagreement with a philosophical school of thought that I believe would lead towards an uncivil society. One controlled by those that my or my not have the best interests of the masses at heart. This is not ‘waging war’ it’s simply fighting for the supremacy of ideas. People have done that throughout history. Unfortunately with the rise of media and those that would like to control and/or point the populace towards more liberal views we are seeing an unfair battlefield, if that’s what you feel comfortable calling it.

As I mentioned to malkie, Canadians, even if their society has become more secularized, in practice, as a result of governmental control and its historically entrenched views/inclinations towards less liberty and freedom in comparison to what our founding fathers envisioned (those that carried the day anyway), still carry the principles and ideas taught in the religious teachings of their forefathers in their hearts/consciousness.

Religious belief is neither necessary nor sufficient for liberty and freedom.

Secular humanists that are non and/or anti theists being in charge of nations do not have a good track record in regards to liberty and freedom.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

The way I see it is that there was no harm, no foul. If you want to see it otherwise, so be it. I’m enjoying the interaction. But if you want to pull out that’s fine. Your perspective will be missed however.

Regards,
MG

In the pickup games I played in, if someone called a foul and the offender said, "No harm, no foul", usually this hurt the game as pickup games relied on folks being able to call and accept their own fouls. Someone unable to agree they'd fouled someone else and asserting there was no harm done so everyone should just keep playing was probably not going to be told when we played next. Worst case, they ended up on the receiving end of an undeniable foul with the, "no harm, no foul" thrown back at them. Again, bad for the game.

But in this case it’s true. No harm, no foul. You and others can continue to play or not.

Regards,
MG

[Kishkumen]

So pornography’s existence on the shelves of schools where young people attend is the solution to having a civil society?

Where is this happening? What are you calling pornography? What is your evidence?

[MG 2.0]

We see some of those unfortunate inclinations expressed in recent history as we are observing the cultural divide as to what is and isn’t appropriate for young innocent children to be exposed to in regards to sexuality. Apparently there are those that seem to have little or no difficulty accepting pornography in the school system of America’s schools. Secularism at its best/worst?

This is a crystal clear example of the bigotry that permeates your worldview.

We are definitely not on the same page as to what constitutes bigotry.

It's fairly obvious that you have no definition whatsoever for "secularism" other than "people who do not believe in MG 2.0's God.

No, incorrect.

You use it solely as a pejorative label.

No, incorrect. It’s a descriptive label.

That is the very essence of bigotry.

You definitely have a way with twisting words to make them say what you want them to say even if that’s not what others are actually saying.

You’re a lawyer, right?

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

So pornography’s existence on the shelves of schools where young people attend is the solution to having a civil society?

Where is this happening? What are you calling pornography? What is your evidence?

He hasn’t named titles.

[Kishkumen]

Well, I call BS on these pornography claims until evidence is produced.

[MG 2.0]

MG 2.0, you've shown such a high degree of moral relativism in your discussions about Mormonism that it's amazing that you expect anyone to take this statement of yours seriously.

I question this statement.

Care to go into a bit more detail with references/evidence?

Please use context and my words.

Thanks.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Well, I call BS on these pornography claims until evidence is produced.

Page nineteen of this thread is a good place to start.

Dig deep into the link provided.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

Well, I call BS on these pornography claims until evidence is produced.

Page nineteen of this thread is a good place to start.

Dig deep into the link provided.

Regards,
MG

Let’s discuss a specific book. “It’s perfectly normal.”

According to the Twitter post, it’s aimed at 10 year olds. But it’s too graphic to even post the photo of it here.

[MG 2.0]

MG isn't living in reality.

Yes I am. You seem to have a problem with the fact that at one time I was in a similar place as you. Little or no hope/belief in a loving creator God.

I came back to faith. You’ve remained in a state of disbelief.

There’s going to be a natural defensive conflict/position that I would expect you to take.

And the expectation that you would make a comment like the one I quoted above.

Regards,
MG