In honor of Mormonism

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

In honor of Mormonism

Post by dastardly stem »

If Mormonism were true many entailments of traditional Christianity must be false. let's consider:

4 Stages to debunk Christianity:

Stage 1. God is all-powerful and all-knowing. He is the only self-existing thing in all of existence, on Christian thought. He made everything, and is called the Creator. Before anything was made He knew that the only way evil would ever become something is if He created. And then He created. Thus, we can say with certainty, and must declare the entailment of Christian belief is God is the cause of all evil. Each evil can be traced back to God's act of creation...and He knew that would have to be. But it's worse.

God knew everything, even before creating. He knew, for instance, Cain would kill his brother, before Cain ever existed. You see, God made everything ex nihilo, on Christian thought--He created out of nothing. We humas must have a thought of evil before we commit evil. God must have thought of evil before anything besides Him ever was. And on Christian teaching we know it is sin, or evil to think of evil. If God were all-powerful and all-knowing He could have refrained from thinking of evil before creating. But He did not. He thought of it. He is the original one to conceive of evil. Thus, the entailment of Christian teaching is God is the most evil thing that ever could be. For he conceived of each evil, and played it out.

Stage 2: God created heaven and hell. Thus, before creating anything God conceived of a place, called hell, that would house evil and suffering for eternity. That means evil and suffering would play out to an infinite extent. There simply could not be more evil added to infinite evil and be said to add to the amount of evil. Thus, the entailment of Christain thought is God made the worst possible world...out of nothing.

Stage 3: yes, again God created heaven and hell. But heaven becomes a second hell, on Christian teaching. It must. Heaven is place where God will be worshipped for eternity. But, as Stages 1 and 2 point out, God is evil. So, the worshipping is directed at the one who epitomizes all evil. Which is just hell, by definition. But it gets worse. If one is saved, one must worship for eternity the all-powerful one who caused all evil, true...but must do so knowing others are suffering the most ridiculous and most terrible type of suffering imaginable...for eternity. So any decent person who is saved will necessarily suffer eternally by mourning for those who suffer eternally. Thus, on Christian teaching, heaven is simply second hell. It might not be as bad, but for decent people it is probably even worse.

Stage 4: God sent His divine Son to earth to accomplish salvation for some people. God, according to Christian thought, emblazoned on human history messages from this divine Son to humanity in the New Testament. Thus, one would think God, if he were good (impossible on Christain thought, as previously demonstrated), would provide wise words that people should cherish. Instead we get a pile of mixed messages that can only suggest God intended to confuse and not inspire. The greatest example of a mixed message I can think of, and anyone can offer a competing alternative if they want, is put in the mouth of God's Son--Hate your family and yourself, as a requirement, and love your enemies as yourself. There are tons of other mixed messages put out by Jesus in HIs supposed own words. And, as a truth, there are even far more mixed messages that come from the Bible as a whole, which on Christian thought, is God's word. If God is good, the Bible can't possibly be from Him. If God is bad or evil, then the Bible makes sense. God is already proven to be evil on Christian thought, thus the Bible makes sense as coming from that evil one.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
drumdude
God
Posts: 5214
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: In honor of Mormonism

Post by drumdude »

Well said. The God of Mormonism is not the God of Christianity, or Judaism.

Mormons hate when you don’t call then Christians, but it is based upon this simple fact. Jesus Christ didn’t believe in this version of God, so how does it make any sense for it to be called Christianity?
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: In honor of Mormonism

Post by dastardly stem »

drumdude wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 2:38 pm
Well said. The God of Mormonism is not the God of Christianity, or Judaism.
Yep. It has taken me the grand process of leaving Mormonism to realize that. I assumed we were all talking about the same thing.
Mormons hate when you don’t call then Christians, but it is based upon this simple fact. Jesus Christ didn’t believe in this version of God, so how does it make any sense for it to be called Christianity?
Mormonism carries its own terrible entailments, for sure. But if I were Mormon I'd have to proudly embrace the stark differences. God was something so much different to Hebrews circa 1,000 BCE compared to Hebrews circa 1 BCE, and each of those so much different to God amongst Christians today.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
User avatar
Doctor Steuss
God
Posts: 1672
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:48 pm

Re: In honor of Mormonism

Post by Doctor Steuss »

drumdude wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 2:38 pm
Well said. The God of Mormonism is not the God of Christianity, or Judaism.
for what it's worth, both modern and ancient Judaism aren't entirely univocal on all of the "omni's" of God.
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: In honor of Mormonism

Post by dastardly stem »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 2:52 pm
drumdude wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 2:38 pm
Well said. The God of Mormonism is not the God of Christianity, or Judaism.
for what it's worth, both modern and ancient Judaism aren't entirely univocal on all of the "omni's" of God.
True. I will add I had a conversation with a self-proclaimed Rabbi recently. His take on this was, he escapes all these entailments because God did not know really what he was doing. And he also suggested he can't conceive of a God as Christians do--a brainless mind not encompassing space. On further inspection I couldn't really get why His god is not the source of evil, it kind of seemed like he thought He was...but he also wasn't sure what that'd mean.

Anyway, good point, Doctor.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
User avatar
Doctor Steuss
God
Posts: 1672
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:48 pm

Re: In honor of Mormonism

Post by Doctor Steuss »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 2:59 pm
Doctor Steuss wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 2:52 pm
for what it's worth, both modern and ancient Judaism aren't entirely univocal on all of the "omni's" of God.
True. I will add I had a conversation with a self-proclaimed Rabbi recently. His take on this was, he escapes all these entailments because God did not know really what he was doing. And he also suggested he can't conceive of a God as Christians do--a brainless mind not encompassing space. On further inspection I couldn't really get why His god is not the source of evil, it kind of seemed like he thought He was...but he also wasn't sure what that'd mean.

Anyway, good point, Doctor.
He may have been a proponent of the limited God concept. Essentially, God has all powers that are possible to have (but He doesn't have power of things that are "The Given" [i.e. thing that just... are]). It somewhat dovetails into aspects of the Torah where God is described as struggling, or is frustrated by something getting in his way or gumming up His plans.

Rabbi Louis Jacobs had some lectures that included a discussion of limited theism in Judaism. I know it was published as a book, but I think it might be on JSTOR (if you have university access, or know someone who does... give me a bit to spelunk).

ETA: https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt17mvhsq
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: In honor of Mormonism

Post by dastardly stem »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 3:10 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 2:59 pm
True. I will add I had a conversation with a self-proclaimed Rabbi recently. His take on this was, he escapes all these entailments because God did not know really what he was doing. And he also suggested he can't conceive of a God as Christians do--a brainless mind not encompassing space. On further inspection I couldn't really get why His god is not the source of evil, it kind of seemed like he thought He was...but he also wasn't sure what that'd mean.

Anyway, good point, Doctor.
He may have been a proponent of the limited God concept. Essentially, God has all powers that are possible to have (but He doesn't have power of things that are "The Given" [i.e. thing that just... are]). It somewhat dovetails into aspects of the Torah where God is described as struggling, or is frustrated by something getting in his way or gumming up His plans.

Rabbi Louis Jacobs had some lectures that included a discussion of limited theism in Judaism. I know it was published as a book, but I think it might be on JSTOR (if you have university access, or know someone who does... give me a bit to spelunk).

ETA: https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt17mvhsq
I would question whether negative theology or the limited God concept really gets anyone out of this mess. But, one thing is true...on Judaism, I have plenty to learn...so I'll take what I can get. Thanks.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
User avatar
Doctor Steuss
God
Posts: 1672
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:48 pm

Re: In honor of Mormonism

Post by Doctor Steuss »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 3:30 pm
I would question whether negative theology or the limited God concept really gets anyone out of this mess. But, one thing is true...on Judaism, I have plenty to learn...so I'll take what I can get. Thanks.
You are very welcome. Sorry if I've derailed your thread.

When it comes to Judaism (of course, there are always exceptions), it doesn't tend to have the kind of dogmatic gatekeeping you see within Christianity. Incidentally (at least in my limited experience), Judaism seems to be much more open to things like critical Biblical scholarship as well.
User avatar
Rivendale
God
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: In honor of Mormonism

Post by Rivendale »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 2:59 pm
Doctor Steuss wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 2:52 pm
for what it's worth, both modern and ancient Judaism aren't entirely univocal on all of the "omni's" of God.
True. I will add I had a conversation with a self-proclaimed Rabbi recently. His take on this was, he escapes all these entailments because God did not know really what he was doing. And he also suggested he can't conceive of a God as Christians do--a brainless mind not encompassing space. On further inspection I couldn't really get why His god is not the source of evil, it kind of seemed like he thought He was...but he also wasn't sure what that'd mean.

Anyway, good point, Doctor.
Mormon transhumanists also excuse god by placing him as an evolved primate.
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: In honor of Mormonism

Post by dastardly stem »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 3:56 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Wed May 03, 2023 3:30 pm
I would question whether negative theology or the limited God concept really gets anyone out of this mess. But, one thing is true...on Judaism, I have plenty to learn...so I'll take what I can get. Thanks.
You are very welcome. Sorry if I've derailed your thread.

When it comes to Judaism (of course, there are always exceptions), it doesn't tend to have the kind of dogmatic gatekeeping you see within Christianity. Incidentally (at least in my limited experience), Judaism seems to be much more open to things like critical Biblical scholarship as well.
I have similar impressions. Thanks. No problem on derail. I never really mind people giving their thoughts whether related or not, and most often appreciate them. Thanks.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Post Reply