Everyone Has Faith; That is the Only Option

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

How about JohnW steelman people’s reasons for leaving? You know. See what he comes up with.

- Doc

[Philo Sofee]

Pride and a lack of faith are the reasons we leave church?

Seems pretty typical straw manning designed to not understand the reason people actually leave the church.

Every time I share it was light and knowledge for my leaving, I am ignored... so.......uh.......... yeah, pride and lack of faith.

[JohnW]

I would say I tend to struggle with pride as much as the next human. I would also say that I am still learning about what faith means to me. I certainly wouldn't say I have it all figured out, if that is what you are asking.

Obviously, you don't tend to struggle with pride as much as the next human who either leaves the church or engages in apologetics.

You say that the reason people leave the Church is either insufficient faith or surplus pride. I'm asking how your own faith and pride are either qualitatively or quantitatively different from those you've observed leaving. You seem to have some pretty developed theories about this. I'd like to read more.

I guess I was trying to avoid the topic. I feel uncomfortable when talking about why people leave. It is too easy to give a holier-than-thou impression. There are as many reasons to leave the church as there are people leaving. I don't want to cheapen their decision. Many people who leave have put a lot of effort into that decision. It is a decision that often has massive consequences for them. People usually don't take those types of decisions lightly. Having said all that, I get the sense you really want my perspective, so I'll make the attempt.

I'll start with pride, because I consider that to be rather foundational. In my case, twenty years ago I started to lose my faith and my testimony. Long story short: I didn't. I've tried to analyze why for a long time. The main thing I came up with is something I learned while getting my PhD in physics: I am dumb. That sounds a little weird, but it is true. The smartest I've ever felt in my life was the day before I started graduate-level physics courses. It was all downhill from there. Believe it or not, finding out that I'm not all that smart is one of the most valuable lessons I've ever learned in my life. I try to take that lesson to heart. When someone else is talking, I try to learn from them. If my first instinct is that they have nothing to teach me, I've found out over the years that is the most important time to listen and learn. If I had to point to one reason why I didn't leave the church, this is probably it. I tried hard to listen to both sides of the issue objectively and come to a well thought out conclusion that was my own, not just a parroted statement from someone else. This wasn't easy, especially when I began to learn there are uncomfortable truths on both sides of the issue. I couldn't just dismiss one side or the other. They both had something to teach me.

Faith was the next reason. It is important to note that I didn't say people leave because they have insufficient faith. I said people leave because they misunderstand what faith actually is. There is an important distinction. I personally believe that faith is a beautiful thing. It seems like most people have it. This, of course, is the topic of this thread. We all have faith in wonderful things, some people just place their faith in things other than God or the church. Again, I still think that is a beautiful thing. I've known people who don't believe in God, but have wonderful, beautiful faith in humanity. I have learned a lot from them. Those who leave the church seem to leave because they just don't see how it can logically work. They don't see how they can ever believe. When I decided to stay and continue on in the church, I sort of gave up on ever understanding why and just focused on helping people and trying to learn. It was terribly uncomfortable at first. It felt like nothing was holding me up. I felt like I would crumble at any moment. I guess it feels a little like learning to ride a bike. When I first learned how to ride a bike as a kid, I was pretty shaky. It was a constant sensation of being on the precipice of collapse. I felt like nothing was holding me upright. After a while, I became a bit more confident. Eventually, riding a bike was second nature to me. As a teen, I still had no idea about the physical forces that were holding me upright, but I didn't really need to understand the mathematical equations; I had experience with them. It was the same with the church. I started out really shaky, like there were times I wondered if I had made the completely wrong choice. After a while, I became a little more confident. Eventually, faith became second nature to me. I still don't know the why on a lot of doctrinal issues or policies that used to trouble me, but I don't need to know the why; I have experience with faith and God, and that is enough. Sure I would still be curious to find out the why for a lot of things, but not finding out just doesn't bother me anymore.

As I talked to people who were leaving the church, that is the understanding of faith that they often lacked. They seemed to want to be sure before they stayed. They seemed to want all their questions answered before they did anything. They didn't understand that even if we had all the mathematical equations that described how to ride a bike, we would still have to go through the same, difficult process of learning that is entirely uncomfortable and filled with a host of failures before any successes.

Anyway, sorry for the length. This is my perspective while talking to people leaving the church. I'm sure I'm wrong in various ways, but I also think I'm right in at least a couple ways.

[Marcus]

Obviously, you don't tend to struggle with pride as much as the next human who either leaves the church or engages in apologetics.

You say that the reason people leave the Church is either insufficient faith or surplus pride. I'm asking how your own faith and pride are either qualitatively or quantitatively different from those you've observed leaving. You seem to have some pretty developed theories about this. I'd like to read more.

I guess I was trying to avoid the topic. I feel uncomfortable when talking about why people leave. It is too easy to give a holier-than-thou impression. There are as many reasons to leave the church as there are people leaving. I don't want to cheapen their decision. Many people who leave have put a lot of effort into that decision. It is a decision that often has massive consequences for them. People usually don't take those types of decisions lightly. Having said all that, I get the sense you really want my perspective, so I'll make the attempt.

I'll start with pride, because I consider that to be rather foundational. In my case, twenty years ago I started to lose my faith and my testimony. Long story short: I didn't. I've tried to analyze why for a long time. The main thing I came up with is something I learned while getting my PhD in physics: I am dumb. That sounds a little weird, but it is true. The smartest I've ever felt in my life was the day before I started graduate-level physics courses. It was all downhill from there. Believe it or not, finding out that I'm not all that smart is one of the most valuable lessons I've ever learned in my life. I try to take that lesson to heart. When someone else is talking, I try to learn from them. If my first instinct is that they have nothing to teach me, I've found out over the years that is the most important time to listen and learn. If I had to point to one reason why I didn't leave the church, this is probably it. I tried hard to listen to both sides of the issue objectively and come to a well thought out conclusion that was my own, not just a parroted statement from someone else. This wasn't easy, especially when I began to learn there are uncomfortable truths on both sides of the issue. I couldn't just dismiss one side or the other. They both had something to teach me.

Faith was the next reason. It is important to note that I didn't say people leave because they have insufficient faith. I said people leave because they misunderstand what faith actually is. There is an important distinction. I personally believe that faith is a beautiful thing. It seems like most people have it. This, of course, is the topic of this thread. We all have faith in wonderful things, some people just place their faith in things other than God or the church. Again, I still think that is a beautiful thing. I've known people who don't believe in God, but have wonderful, beautiful faith in humanity. I have learned a lot from them. Those who leave the church seem to leave because they just don't see how it can logically work. They don't see how they can ever believe. When I decided to stay and continue on in the church, I sort of gave up on ever understanding why and just focused on helping people and trying to learn. It was terribly uncomfortable at first. It felt like nothing was holding me up. I felt like I would crumble at any moment. I guess it feels a little like learning to ride a bike. When I first learned how to ride a bike as a kid, I was pretty shaky. It was a constant sensation of being on the precipice of collapse. I felt like nothing was holding me upright. After a while, I became a bit more confident. Eventually, riding a bike was second nature to me. As a teen, I still had no idea about the physical forces that were holding me upright, but I didn't really need to understand the mathematical equations; I had experience with them. It was the same with the church. I started out really shaky, like there were times I wondered if I had made the completely wrong choice. After a while, I became a little more confident. Eventually, faith became second nature to me. I still don't know the why on a lot of doctrinal issues or policies that used to trouble me, but I don't need to know the why; I have experience with faith and God, and that is enough. Sure I would still be curious to find out the why for a lot of things, but not finding out just doesn't bother me anymore.

As I talked to people who were leaving the church, that is the understanding of faith that they often lacked. They seemed to want to be sure before they stayed. They seemed to want all their questions answered before they did anything. They didn't understand that even if we had all the mathematical equations that described how to ride a bike, we would still have to go through the same, difficult process of learning that is entirely uncomfortable and filled with a host of failures before any successes.

Anyway, sorry for the length. This is my perspective while talking to people leaving the church. I'm sure I'm wrong in various ways, but I also think I'm right in at least a couple ways.

I just have to laugh. I apologize for being offensive, but in my opinion, you said a sum total of absolutely nothing above. Very pretty sounding, and i'm sure it would pass as an acceptable sac mtg talk, but there is no content at all. None whatsoever.

In my opinion, thnking like this is what it takes to stay dedicated to an imaginary religion. I suppose that's my opinion on why people stay, the counter-argument to your assessment of why people leave.

[Morley]

Obviously, you don't tend to struggle with pride as much as the next human who either leaves the church or engages in apologetics.

You say that the reason people leave the Church is either insufficient faith or surplus pride. I'm asking how your own faith and pride are either qualitatively or quantitatively different from those you've observed leaving. You seem to have some pretty developed theories about this. I'd like to read more.

I guess I was trying to avoid the topic. I feel uncomfortable when talking about why people leave. It is too easy to give a holier-than-thou impression. There are as many reasons to leave the church as there are people leaving. I don't want to cheapen their decision. Many people who leave have put a lot of effort into that decision. It is a decision that often has massive consequences for them. People usually don't take those types of decisions lightly. Having said all that, I get the sense you really want my perspective, so I'll make the attempt.

I'll start with pride, because I consider that to be rather foundational. In my case, twenty years ago I started to lose my faith and my testimony. Long story short: I didn't. I've tried to analyze why for a long time. The main thing I came up with is something I learned while getting my PhD in physics: I am dumb. That sounds a little weird, but it is true. The smartest I've ever felt in my life was the day before I started graduate-level physics courses. It was all downhill from there. Believe it or not, finding out that I'm not all that smart is one of the most valuable lessons I've ever learned in my life. I try to take that lesson to heart. When someone else is talking, I try to learn from them. If my first instinct is that they have nothing to teach me, I've found out over the years that is the most important time to listen and learn. If I had to point to one reason why I didn't leave the church, this is probably it. I tried hard to listen to both sides of the issue objectively and come to a well thought out conclusion that was my own, not just a parroted statement from someone else. This wasn't easy, especially when I began to learn there are uncomfortable truths on both sides of the issue. I couldn't just dismiss one side or the other. They both had something to teach me.

Faith was the next reason. It is important to note that I didn't say people leave because they have insufficient faith. I said people leave because they misunderstand what faith actually is. There is an important distinction. I personally believe that faith is a beautiful thing. It seems like most people have it. This, of course, is the topic of this thread. We all have faith in wonderful things, some people just place their faith in things other than God or the church. Again, I still think that is a beautiful thing. I've known people who don't believe in God, but have wonderful, beautiful faith in humanity. I have learned a lot from them. Those who leave the church seem to leave because they just don't see how it can logically work. They don't see how they can ever believe. When I decided to stay and continue on in the church, I sort of gave up on ever understanding why and just focused on helping people and trying to learn. It was terribly uncomfortable at first. It felt like nothing was holding me up. I felt like I would crumble at any moment. I guess it feels a little like learning to ride a bike. When I first learned how to ride a bike as a kid, I was pretty shaky. It was a constant sensation of being on the precipice of collapse. I felt like nothing was holding me upright. After a while, I became a bit more confident. Eventually, riding a bike was second nature to me. As a teen, I still had no idea about the physical forces that were holding me upright, but I didn't really need to understand the mathematical equations; I had experience with them. It was the same with the church. I started out really shaky, like there were times I wondered if I had made the completely wrong choice. After a while, I became a little more confident. Eventually, faith became second nature to me. I still don't know the why on a lot of doctrinal issues or policies that used to trouble me, but I don't need to know the why; I have experience with faith and God, and that is enough. Sure I would still be curious to find out the why for a lot of things, but not finding out just doesn't bother me anymore.

As I talked to people who were leaving the church, that is the understanding of faith that they often lacked. They seemed to want to be sure before they stayed. They seemed to want all their questions answered before they did anything. They didn't understand that even if we had all the mathematical equations that described how to ride a bike, we would still have to go through the same, difficult process of learning that is entirely uncomfortable and filled with a host of failures before any successes.

Anyway, sorry for the length. This is my perspective while talking to people leaving the church. I'm sure I'm wrong in various ways, but I also think I'm right in at least a couple ways.

Thank you for your long, thoughtful reply, John. I’m not able to now, but will try to respond, in like manner, in a couple of weeks.

Edit:

A few words, until then: It also reads as though it’s “Pride and Faith” that are the duo that are making you stay in the Church. Am I wrong? I’m not sure that I’m picking up on your humility and doubt.

Trust that one can master a simple machine that you’ve seen hundreds of children ride to school, is not the same as having a faith in a supernatural being who made an evil man rich and cursed my friend with black skin so he can’t vote. Then this all-powerful, all-knowing being sent men, who said they were prophets, who either misrepresented or lied to me about what they absolutely knew that he (God) said. Faith in God and bicycle riding are not the same. It’s not pride or faith keeping me from mastering the bike, it’s lack of practice.

That bicycle might get me to work, but it’s not going to raise me from the dead.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

-_-

Man. It’s really something to be lectured by a Mormon on pride and “faith”.

Whatever the case may be, they have to muddle around in abstractions and vagueries because that’s all they got. They think they have some sort of gnostic connection to a greater truth (there’s your pride for you) that we lack, and they trust their own emotions (faith) on the matter. It’s absolutely bananas, that despite the tens of thousands of examples showing Mormonism to be nothing more than a man-made fiction, where one could easily tick off a hundred stupidities, we get lectured that we just don’t trust the men who lied to us enough.

Sheer gaslighting.

- Doc

[Rivendale]

That sounds like it came from Elder Mckay's talk. Or a retooling of Bednar's faith not to be healed.

'Is your knowledge and testimony of truth strong enough that you can stare down compelling reasons to doubt and choose to believe?'.

I will never understand how someone can compell themselves to believe something that is logically incoherent.

[malkie]

That sounds like it came from Elder Mckay's talk. Or a retooling of Bednar's faith not to be healed.

'Is your knowledge and testimony of truth strong enough that you can stare down compelling reasons to doubt and choose to believe?'.

I will never understand how someone can compell themselves to believe something that is logically incoherent.

I have difficulty with the whole idea of choosing to believe - in anything.

I believe that my believing something occurs when a balance somewhere in my brain moves from one state to another based on the amount of available evidence, and the quality of that evidence.

So while I cannot just choose to believe something, I have an idea what goes on in my mind when I try to make something more believable.

I can choose to suspend disbelief for a time. But I know that that's what I'm doing, and I don't confuse that state with the state of faith. I'm aware that the mental balance has not shifted on its own while I'm sifting and evaluation evidence. All that's happened is that I temporarily put my finger on scale, or try to imagine that, for example, some piece of evidence is more or less compelling than it would be in its "natural" state.

But eventually my finger gets tired, and the scale returns to its previous point. Or maybe it even goes a little beyond that, due to my failure to be convinced against the preponderance of evidence.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

That sounds like it came from Elder Mckay's talk. Or a retooling of Bednar's faith not to be healed.

I will never understand how someone can compell themselves to believe something that is logically incoherent.

I have difficulty with the whole idea of choosing to believe - in anything.

I believe that my believing something occurs when a balance somewhere in my brain moves from one state to another based on the amount of available evidence, and the quality of that evidence.

So while I cannot just choose to believe something, I have an idea what goes on in my mind when I try to make something more believable.

I can choose to suspend disbelief for a time. But I know that that's what I'm doing, and I don't confuse that state with the state of faith. I'm aware that the mental balance has not shifted on its own while I'm sifting and evaluation evidence. All that's happened is that I temporarily put my finger on scale, or try to imagine that, for example, some piece of evidence is more or less compelling than it would be in its "natural" state.

But eventually my finger gets tired, and the scale returns to its previous point. Or maybe it even goes a little beyond that, due to my failure to be convinced against the preponderance of evidence.

I think it’s called ‘being delusional’.

- Doc

[malkie]

I have difficulty with the whole idea of choosing to believe - in anything.

I believe that my believing something occurs when a balance somewhere in my brain moves from one state to another based on the amount of available evidence, and the quality of that evidence.

So while I cannot just choose to believe something, I have an idea what goes on in my mind when I try to make something more believable.

I can choose to suspend disbelief for a time. But I know that that's what I'm doing, and I don't confuse that state with the state of faith. I'm aware that the mental balance has not shifted on its own while I'm sifting and evaluation evidence. All that's happened is that I temporarily put my finger on scale, or try to imagine that, for example, some piece of evidence is more or less compelling than it would be in its "natural" state.

But eventually my finger gets tired, and the scale returns to its previous point. Or maybe it even goes a little beyond that, due to my failure to be convinced against the preponderance of evidence.

I think it’s called ‘being delusional’.

- Doc

I was afraid of that

Or did you mean choosing to believe, and not what I said.

Your comment was confusional