. The shock of realizing how wrong we were about Mormonism creates an opportunity for deep reevaluation and change, but it’s not clear to me how many take advantage of that opportunity. So, the gift is opportunity. Making use of that opportunity is a completely different story....
Those of who were believing Mormons who later concluded that Mormonism was false should be humbled by the fact that we were fooled about beliefs that were central to our sense of self. The important lesson is that we can be fooled about extremely important things. That should be a source of humility, not a source of pride.
Absolutely. I did my best to undo the damage done, but like you said, it is a point of humility, not pride.
One thing i am proud of though, is that my children were brought into this world as unique individuals and NOT as members of the lds cult. I put a stop to that, and i broke the pattern of 7 generations, on both sides of my family. I did that, and i AM proud that i made it happen. It happened at extreme cost to me personally, but it will change the lives of every generation after me. It has already made a tremendous difference in my children's lives, and my spouse and i see the effects of it every single day.
Doesn't the CoJCoLDS teach that members have access to specific gifts that are not available to non-members? How is that any less arrogant than nonbelievers claiming gifts?
Where I would take issue is the seemingly ‘unwritten order of things’ that some critics seem to believe, that is, that by their very nature of having ‘been through the weeds’, so to speak, and found the truth of ‘non belief’ that they then are somehow superior in their thinking/reasoning abilities to those that find it reasonable to stay in the church.
Sure, believing members of the church do have access to the Holy Ghost as they are true to their covenants. But I don’t see that as falling within the realm of arrogance (being better than).
Intellectual arrogance, in my opinion, belongs in its own category of vanity…and ignorance. I think that in a certain sense it can cause spiritual blindness.
How are these purported Mormon Gifts of the Spirit any less arrogant?
The Gift of Tongues
The Gift of Translation
The Gift of Wisdom
The Gift of Knowledge
The Gift of Prophecy
The Gift of Healing
The Gift of Working Miracles
Morley wrote:How are these purported Mormon Gifts of the Spirit any less arrogant?
The Gift of Tongues
The Gift of Translation
The Gift of Wisdom
The Gift of Knowledge
The Gift of Prophecy
The Gift of Healing
The Gift of Working Miracles
Indeed. Not to mention, how many times has a certain someone stood before the ward at the pulpit and announced he knows the Church is true without a shadow of a doubt?
More like stage 2 not stage 6.
"if you can't admire Joe Biden as a person then it's probably, you got a problem." -- Lindsey Graham
No. I’m saying that my own interaction with former Mormons over the years has not persuaded me that the process of going through a faith crisis makes them any better at accepting evidence that contradicts whatever worldview they adopt after Mormonism.
I concluded some time ago that leaving Mormonism does not include a free coupon for a personality transplant. Changing religious beliefs does not automatically change who we are as people.
I agree with the “gift” analogy, in that a faith crisis creates an opportunity to change who we are. Much of our day to day life is performed on auto-pilot — things we do and choices we make without having to consider our deepest assumptions about who we are. The shock of realizing how wrong we were about Mormonism creates an opportunity for deep reevaluation and change, but it’s not clear to me how many take advantage of that opportunity. So, the gift is opportunity. Making use of that opportunity is a completely different story.
in my opinion, claiming that those that have left the church have a superior ability in terms of recognizing and rejecting false beliefs reflects a degree of hubris inconsistent with an actual change following a faith crisis. Those of who were believing Mormons who later concluded that Mormonism was false should be humbled by the fact that we were fooled about beliefs that were central to our sense of self. The important lesson is that we can be fooled about extremely important things. That should be a source of humility, not a source of pride.
Humans are humans. Good post, Rep Ipsa.
Regards,
MG
It's always a good post when you like the contents.
he/him
“I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time so that my children can live in peace.” — Thomas Paine
Doesn't the CoJCoLDS teach that members have access to specific gifts that are not available to non-members? How is that any less arrogant than nonbelievers claiming gifts?
Where I would take issue is the seemingly ‘unwritten order of things’ that some critics seem to believe, that is, that by their very nature of having ‘been through the weeds’, so to speak, and found the truth of ‘non belief’ that they then are somehow superior in their thinking/reasoning abilities to those that find it reasonable to stay in the church.
Sure, believing members of the church do have access to the Holy Ghost as they are true to their covenants. But I don’t see that as falling within the realm of arrogance (being better than).
Intellectual arrogance, in my opinion, belongs in its own category of vanity…and ignorance. I think that in a certain sense it can cause spiritual blindness.
How are these purported Mormon Gifts of the Spirit any less arrogant?
The Gift of Tongues
The Gift of Translation
The Gift of Wisdom
The Gift of Knowledge
The Gift of Prophecy
The Gift of Healing
The Gift of Working Miracles
edit: Please tell us again how we are arrogant and you are humble.
Look at my response contextually as I posted in response to drumdude back on page one of this thread.
In answer to your question above I would answer that receiving The Gifts of the Spirit are not something that I think an arrogant person would receive from God.
Only a person with a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
How are these purported Mormon Gifts of the Spirit any less arrogant?
The Gift of Tongues
The Gift of Translation
The Gift of Wisdom
The Gift of Knowledge
The Gift of Prophecy
The Gift of Healing
The Gift of Working Miracles
In answer to your question above I would answer that receiving The Gifts of the Spirit are not something that I think an arrogant person would receive from God.
Only a person with a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
Hmm. I guess that explains why no one in the LDS Church today seems to manifest any of the aforementioned gifts.
How are these purported Mormon Gifts of the Spirit any less arrogant?
The Gift of Tongues
The Gift of Translation
The Gift of Wisdom
The Gift of Knowledge
The Gift of Prophecy
The Gift of Healing
The Gift of Working Miracles
In answer to your question above I would answer that receiving The Gifts of the Spirit are not something that I think an arrogant person would receive from God.
Only a person with a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
Hmm. I guess that explains why no one in the LDS Church today seems to manifest any of the aforementioned gifts.
Wow. That’s borderline arrogant. You are the judge? Are you in a position to know and understand whether the gifts of the Spirit are alive and well in the church?
I will acknowledge that in today’s world coming to the place of consistently having a broken heart and a contrite spirit is not as easy as it might sound. Members struggle, I’m sure, with this. That is where humility, not arrogance, comes into play.
Why you thought that these gifts might represent a degree of arrogance on the part of church members is actually a bit disconcerting. You ought to know how and when the gifts of the Spirit are manifest and that arrogance plays no part in that process.
However, arrogance can come into play as one overrates one’s own human capabilities, knowledge, logic, or wisdom.
Hmm. I guess that explains why no one in the LDS Church today seems to manifest any of the aforementioned gifts.
Wow. That’s borderline arrogant. You are the judge? Are you in a position to know and understand whether the gifts of the Spirit are alive and well in the church?
I will acknowledge that in today’s world coming to the place of consistently having a broken heart and a contrite spirit is not as easy as it might sound. Members struggle, I’m sure, with this. That is where humility, not arrogance, comes into play.
Why you thought that these gifts might represent a degree of arrogance on the part of church members is actually a bit disconcerting. You ought to know how and when the gifts of the Spirit are manifest and that arrogance plays no part in that process.
However, arrogance can come into play as one overrates one’s own human capabilities, knowledge, logic, or wisdom.
Yes, I think it's arrogant to make the claim of these spiritual gifts. You think I'm borderline arrogant to even question it.
Okay, MG, help me out of my arrogance. Maybe you'll tell me when someone in the contemporary CoJCoLDS has exercised abilities in a gift that's above and beyond what non-members demonstrate. Here are the categories I listed.
The Gift of Tongues
The Gift of Translation
The Gift of Wisdom
The Gift of Knowledge
The Gift of Prophecy
The Gift of Healing
The Gift of Working Miracles
Wow. That’s borderline arrogant. You are the judge? Are you in a position to know and understand whether the gifts of the Spirit are alive and well in the church?
I will acknowledge that in today’s world coming to the place of consistently having a broken heart and a contrite spirit is not as easy as it might sound. Members struggle, I’m sure, with this. That is where humility, not arrogance, comes into play.
Why you thought that these gifts might represent a degree of arrogance on the part of church members is actually a bit disconcerting. You ought to know how and when the gifts of the Spirit are manifest and that arrogance plays no part in that process.
However, arrogance can come into play as one overrates one’s own human capabilities, knowledge, logic, or wisdom.
Yes, I think it's arrogant to make the claim of these spiritual gifts. You think I'm borderline arrogant to even question it.
Okay, MG, help me out of my arrogance. Maybe you'll tell me when someone in the contemporary CoJCoLDS has exercised abilities in a gift that's above and beyond what non-members demonstrate. Here are the categories I listed.
The Gift of Tongues
The Gift of Translation
The Gift of Wisdom
The Gift of Knowledge
The Gift of Prophecy
The Gift of Healing
The Gift of Working Miracles
That’s a gotcha question. Jesus himself commanded/asked those that were witnesses to miracles and gifts of the Spirit to ‘tell no man’ and go on their way. Gifts of the Spirit are, as I’ve said, promised to the pure in heart that have broken hearts and contrite spirits.
The Savior also said that we should not seek for signs.
President Kimball is rather well known for emphasizing that ‘faith precedes the miracle’. Matthew 7:6-12 should also be kept in mind.
That’s all I have to say on that.
Except to say that Gifts of the Spirit are not unique to members of the LDS Church. God loves ALL His children.
