The real reason the church resists change (with deference to J. Larsen):

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slskipper
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The real reason the church resists change (with deference to J. Larsen):

Post by slskipper »

The most baffling aspect of Mormonism, especially to outsiders, is the central place of "testimony" in the theology. While many religions expect or at least encourage confessions of faith, Mormonism (it seems) has carried this to an absurd extreme. One's ecclesiastical, spiritual and even social merit is almost entirely based on the level of one's willingness to announce one's attainment of a "testimony". The term, of course, is used by Mormons in a much different sense than anybody else- one more example of Mormonism's knack for co-opting normal terminology to their own purposes- like "quorum" and "worthy".

Most of us here have been perennially baffled by this phenomenon. Mormons never explain the path that led to their assurance. They just "know" that "the church is true". We have found over and over that their faith is impervious to disturbing facts about history or dishonesty from the leaders or any faults in local leaders or fellow practitioners. All that matters is that Iknowthechurchistrue. This gets instilled in Mormons from before they are even capable of speech, as many of them hear it over and over in church settings from the day they get their baby blessings. You can't get away from it. It's everywhere.

Here is where John Larsen comes in. As he pointed out in a recent MS podcast, one outstanding feature of Mormons is their enormous sense of superiority. I refer you to that source for more details. But the whole value proposition of a religion is that it uniquely produces superior people. That's why people participate, and in large measure that is why society at large gives such deference to religion as a social institution. Everybody is hoping that there is one (or more) religions that has the right combination of theology and ceremonies and structure to actually produce better people. Even when the faults are made glaringly obvious, people still support the idea of an effective religion to the extent that they will continue to overlook the bad parts and cling to the good.

So what does this have to do with Iknowthechurchistrue? It is becoming clear to me that when a Mormon says this, they mean that they have a conviction that their church, above all others, is the way to produce good people. And the typical Mormons makes the obvious connection that if they are following the church's program, they must logically be one of the "better" people". We see this arrogance all around us in Mormonism. The thing is, when their faith is challenged, ultimately what is being questioned is their integral sense of their own social superiority. And that is something they just cannot allow. This is why questioners and challengers and fact-checkers are so hated and reviled and ultimately kicked out of the group. It has nothing to do with orthodoxy or morality or anything else. It is all about maintaining the group identity as the cream of humanity. That is what you are up against when you criticize The Church. As for the source of their conviction, they somehow become convinced that their emotional ecstasy arises from something external to their own psyches, i.e. The Spirit of God. Then they have this external God's absolute stamp of approval to do almost anything that enters their heads- including the most vile practices imaginable- because Iknowthechurchistrue.

I hope this makes sense. I also hope this isn't too long. Thank you.
drumdude
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Re: The real reason the church resists change (with deference to J. Larsen):

Post by drumdude »

There’s a certain amount of smugness that Mormons have. The teaching that “we have the FULLNESS of the gospel. Everyone else just has a small piece but we know the whole.”

I think it’s deeper, though. A good Mormon will make the church their entire identity. They’re told to look for “missionary opportunities” at work. They’re told to read the scriptures daily. To obey the word of wisdom every waking minute. Listen to conference, prepare your lesson for Sunday, cook the meal for the missionaries. Chaperone the dance, go to the temple twice a month, pay your tithing monthly, on and on and on.

When you tell them it’s all a lie, you’re telling them their entire identity is a lie.
Philo Sofee
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Re: The real reason the church resists change (with deference to J. Larsen):

Post by Philo Sofee »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2023 1:51 am
There’s a certain amount of smugness that Mormons have. The teaching that “we have the FULLNESS of the gospel. Everyone else just has a small piece but we know the whole.”

I think it’s deeper, though. A good Mormon will make the church their entire identity. They’re told to look for “missionary opportunities” at work. They’re told to read the scriptures daily. To obey the word of wisdom every waking minute. Listen to conference, prepare your lesson for Sunday, cook the meal for the missionaries. Chaperone the dance, go to the temple twice a month, pay your tithing monthly, on and on and on.

When you tell them it’s all a lie, you’re telling them their entire identity is a lie.
And many of us are SOOOOOOO blessed to find this out, unworthy though we are, the grace has been sufficient! I thank Father for this further light and knowledge, in all seriousness.
Canadiandude2
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Re: The real reason the church resists change (with deference to J. Larsen):

Post by Canadiandude2 »

slskipper wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2023 12:25 am
The most baffling aspect of Mormonism, especially to outsiders, is the central place of "testimony" in the theology. While many religions expect or at least encourage confessions of faith, Mormonism (it seems) has carried this to an absurd extreme. One's ecclesiastical, spiritual and even social merit is almost entirely based on the level of one's willingness to announce one's attainment of a "testimony". The term, of course, is used by Mormons in a much different sense than anybody else- one more example of Mormonism's knack for co-opting normal terminology to their own purposes- like "quorum" and "worthy".

Most of us here have been perennially baffled by this phenomenon. Mormons never explain the path that led to their assurance. They just "know" that "the church is true". We have found over and over that their faith is impervious to disturbing facts about history or dishonesty from the leaders or any faults in local leaders or fellow practitioners. All that matters is that Iknowthechurchistrue. This gets instilled in Mormons from before they are even capable of speech, as many of them hear it over and over in church settings from the day they get their baby blessings. You can't get away from it. It's everywhere.

Here is where John Larsen comes in. As he pointed out in a recent MS podcast, one outstanding feature of Mormons is their enormous sense of superiority. I refer you to that source for more details. But the whole value proposition of a religion is that it uniquely produces superior people. That's why people participate, and in large measure that is why society at large gives such deference to religion as a social institution. Everybody is hoping that there is one (or more) religions that has the right combination of theology and ceremonies and structure to actually produce better people. Even when the faults are made glaringly obvious, people still support the idea of an effective religion to the extent that they will continue to overlook the bad parts and cling to the good.

So what does this have to do with Iknowthechurchistrue? It is becoming clear to me that when a Mormon says this, they mean that they have a conviction that their church, above all others, is the way to produce good people. And the typical Mormons makes the obvious connection that if they are following the church's program, they must logically be one of the "better" people". We see this arrogance all around us in Mormonism. The thing is, when their faith is challenged, ultimately what is being questioned is their integral sense of their own social superiority. And that is something they just cannot allow. This is why questioners and challengers and fact-checkers are so hated and reviled and ultimately kicked out of the group. It has nothing to do with orthodoxy or morality or anything else. It is all about maintaining the group identity as the cream of humanity. That is what you are up against when you criticize The Church. As for the source of their conviction, they somehow become convinced that their emotional ecstasy arises from something external to their own psyches, i.e. The Spirit of God. Then they have this external God's absolute stamp of approval to do almost anything that enters their heads- including the most vile practices imaginable- because Iknowthechurchistrue.

I hope this makes sense. I also hope this isn't too long. Thank you.
It also explains why Mormons are so susceptible to Culture War bait n’ hooks. Here in Canada kids (in an age-appropriate way) learn about the existence of people outside the majority. But this has only recently become more routinely put into practice in rural schools than just the big cities. Same thing with Gender and Sexuality Alliances/Gay-Str8-Alliances/GSA’s.

One heavily Mormon school division years ago filmed the parent-teacher meeting where they discussed a new education policy that would require every school to have a GSA if asked for one by a student. The Mormons were outraged. The school division has taken the video down since. Don’t know how to access it anymore. But the sense of privilege was apparent with each and every anti-lgbtq+ speaker that spoke against the policy. The wife of the local seminary-teacher-now small-Canadian-city-Institute-director was literally shaking with fury as she proclaimed prophetic warnings or something.

I never saw that sleepy Mormon town the same way after that.
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sock puppet
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Re: The real reason the church resists change (with deference to J. Larsen):

Post by sock puppet »

slskipper wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2023 12:25 am
* * * As for the source of their conviction, they somehow become convinced that their emotional ecstasy arises from something external to their own psyches, i.e. The Spirit of God. Then they have this external God's absolute stamp of approval to do almost anything that enters their heads- including the most vile practices imaginable- because Iknowthechurchistrue. * * *
There in lies the parlor trick of Mormonism (and many other religions, for that matter). Convincing people to attribute their emotions arising "from something external to their own psyches, i.e., The Spirit of God." And that is the Achille's heel of faithful conviction.
"Apologists try to shill an explanation to questioning members as though science and reason really explain and buttress their professed faith. It [sic] does not. ...faith is the antithesis of science and reason." Critic as quoted by Peterson, Daniel C. (2010) FARMS Review, Intro., v22:2,2.
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Rivendale
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Re: The real reason the church resists change (with deference to J. Larsen):

Post by Rivendale »

sock puppet wrote:
Wed Aug 23, 2023 4:41 pm
slskipper wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2023 12:25 am
* * * As for the source of their conviction, they somehow become convinced that their emotional ecstasy arises from something external to their own psyches, i.e. The Spirit of God. Then they have this external God's absolute stamp of approval to do almost anything that enters their heads- including the most vile practices imaginable- because Iknowthechurchistrue. * * *
There in lies the parlor trick of Mormonism (and many other religions, for that matter). Convincing people to attribute their emotions arising "from something external to their own psyches, i.e., The Spirit of God." And that is the Achille's heel of faithful conviction.
Even leaders have trouble deciding who the voices in their head are. Joseph Smith was bamboozled by the devil to try and sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon. And sometimes the voice is purposely misleading as Hollands wrong roads talk emphasizes. Dallin Oaks was asked about conflicting voices and he doubled down on picking the voice that closely matches the brethren.
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