Seeing Things Differently -DanP the apologist excuse.

[Gadianton]

We need to trust that God knows.

just literally just said that God can't know -- can't know the future. In other words, is his triumph over evil permanent? He can't see the future so he really has no clue, just like us.

[MG 2.0]

The point of the above is to ask MG, how would you know you aren't pre-programmed if your brain is executing the program and your conscious mind is just narrating rationalizations for why you did what you did?

In this example brain function is playing its necessary part in order to bring information into the system from outside the system. That information is distorted. Correct responses are limited by that distortion. The ability to choose correctly is limited to what the system can entertain as reality.

One of the points I’ve been making throughout this thread is that choice and free will have their limitations. That doesn’t negate free will in the system as a whole. Another person is going to be able to make the correct choice because their receiving system is aligned with objective reality. Unless, of course, you want to get into all that quanta mumbo jumbo.

The system is set up so that free will (ideally) is an option. But even at that, it may be limited.

Earlier I said that I know that I have free will and that you or anyone else cannot tell me that I don’t. The fact that (this is a big deal for Gadianton) I could have made a different decision doesn’t in any way contest the fact that I did make a decision in the moment. That’s free will and choice.

Gonna say it again, I’m amazed that you and others are fixated on the whole free will thing. I think there may be reasons for that as I’ve stated earlier and given some possible reasons why, but nonetheless, I’m finding it interesting.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Ah, to save free will God can't be all powerful or all knowing.

Free will doesn’t need saving. It just is.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

Free will doesn’t need saving. It just is.

You didn't start putting limits on God's knowledge and power until after it was pointed out that omniscience is incompatible with free will.

[Gadianton]

The fact that (this is a big deal for Gadianton) I could have made a different decision doesn’t in any way contest the fact that I did make a decision in the moment.

This is getting confusing. You're right, the fact that you could have chosen otherwise doesn't in any way contest the fact that you made a choice.

That's like saying the fact that the square root of four is two in no way contests the fact that two times two equals four.

[honorentheos]

The point of the above is to ask MG, how would you know you aren't pre-programmed if your brain is executing the program and your conscious mind is just narrating rationalizations for why you did what you did?

In this example brain function is playing its necessary part in order to bring information into the system from outside the system. That information is distorted. Correct responses are limited by that distortion. The ability to choose correctly is limited to what the system can entertain as reality.

That's not accurate.

What the example shows is the brain can process information and make determinations or take actions that are hidden from our conscious minds. But rather than accept these things are being done for reasons we don't understand, we explain or rationalize them (confabulation) as if we had a choice in the event happening or that ground it in our beliefs. It's a very strong example showing you can believe you have choice in a situation when the reality underlying it is absolutely the opposite. You can't intuit your way to free will. That intuition is a lie you are telling yourself.

One of the points I’ve been making throughout this thread is that choice and free will have their limitations.

Yes.

That doesn’t negate free will in the system as a whole.

Couldn't say. We wouldn't know the difference.

Another person is going to be able to make the correct choice because their receiving system is aligned with objective reality.

Funny thing about objective reality. We all assume we are the closer to it than is someone we observe acting in discordance with our beliefs about what it is. Wonder why that is?

Unless, of course, you want to get into all that quanta mumbo jumbo.

The system is set up so that free will (ideally) is an option. But even at that, it may be limited.

Or, the system is the product of imperfect biological forces that favor survival over anything else in order to propagate one's genes to a new generation. Reason isn't necessary, and may even be in conflict with this "system".

Earlier I said that I know that I have free will and that you or anyone else cannot tell me that I don’t.

Yeah. Your left hand pointed at an apple and you claim its because you like red. That's not surprising.

You don't have free will or you'd be able to engage the evidence in a way that allowed for Mormonism to be a lie.

[MG 2.0]

Ah, to save free will God can't be all powerful or all knowing.

Interesting. I guess you don't need to make any special qualifications to Res Ipsa anymore about absolute truth since God is in the same boat as us.

In that case how about this: Did Adam have free will in the Garden of Eden?

On this one I will refer to Pi:

Some scholars and theologians have indeed argued that the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden can be read as a parable about the limits of human free will and the inevitability of sin.

According to this interpretation, the story suggests that human beings are inherently flawed and imperfect, and that they are unable to fully resist the temptation to disobey God's commandments.

In this reading of the story, Adam and Eve's decision to eat the fruit was a necessary and inevitable part of God's plan, and ultimately paved the way for the coming of Jesus Christ and the possibility of redemption.

This interpretation of the story raises interesting questions about the nature of human freedom and responsibility, and has been the subject of much debate and discussion among theologians and philosophers over the centuries.

Ultimately, the interpretation of the Garden of Eden story depends on one's beliefs about the nature of God, the role of human beings in the world, and the relationship between free will and determinism.

As you can see, things can get rather complicated and convoluted, and even somewhat confusing, as one gets into the nuts and bolts.

As I said earlier, this is one of those instances where it becomes a matter of trust in God’s plan and that He is well aware of the limits of free will and now those limitations affect outcomes and forward movement. LDS belief is that Jesus Christ bridges these gaps of understanding and makes things whole.

Faith is not as simple when one gets into the nuts and bolts and tries to determine how the sausage is made, as I said earlier.

In the final analysis it does become a matter of trust and hope based upon the available information and knowledge that is available and an outward look towards purpose and meaning beyond ourselves.

I keep saying that this will vary from person to person. Res Ipsa seems to take this as a pejorative judgement on him as a person. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

It’s just a fact…way back to the beginning of the thread…coming to the party and seeing what’s going on with different eyes of experience and perception.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

You don't have free will or you'd be able to engage the evidence in a way that allowed for Mormonism to be a lie.

Ah, and it all comes down to this does it?

I have engaged the evidence and found it wanting.

And I do have free will.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I think we’re going in circles.

Regards,
MG

[honorentheos]

You don't have free will or you'd be able to engage the evidence in a way that allowed for Mormonism to be a lie.

Ah, and it all comes down to this does it?

I have engaged the evidence and found it wanting.

And I do have free will.

Regards,
MG

How would you know you aren't just claiming your left hand pointed at an apple because you like red when your subconscious saw the equivalent of an apple?

We have actual evidence this occurs, MG. There are whole fields of neuroscience engaged in the subjects involved. The idea we are engaging the world with highly executive decision making is pretty outdated.