Can Atheists appreciate Johann Sebastian Bach?

[huckelberry]

Does Bach prove the existence of God? No, but his music points in that direction.

I admit that I'm with Marcus on this. Please elaborate, Huck.

Does everything that is beautiful point to God?

Yes, of course.

I think Marcus's comment is reasonable, with the reservation that I doubt Bach fits thinking life is trite or a waste.

[yellowstone123]

This a great topic and post. For me it demonstrates that most people are attracted to what is good and pleasing. One doesn’t need a sales force as people flock to it naturally. It sells itself.

[Morley]

I admit that I'm with Marcus on this. Please elaborate, Huck.

Does everything that is beautiful point to God?

Yes, of course.

Does everything that's ugly also point to God?

[Dr. Shades]

Lewis who?

Hmm, it could be:

• Lewis and Clark
• Lewis Armstrong
• Lewis Structure
• Sinclair Lewis
• Lewis Lane
• C. S. Lewis
• Lewis Carroll
• Jerry Lee Lewis
• Lewis Body Dementia
• St. Lewis, Missouri

But then, context is everything. Don't you think?

You forgot Huey Lewis and the News.

But yes, context is everything. What’s your theory on who this “Lewis” is whom hauslern mentioned?

[Marcus]

I admit that I'm with Marcus on this. Please elaborate, Huck.

Does everything that is beautiful point to God?

Yes, of course.

I think Marcus's comment is reasonable, with the reservation that I doubt Bach fits thinking life is trite or a waste.

Wait, what? My best understanding of this is that you are taking my statement ---

"I think the genius of his music evokes strong responses, in the direction of strengthening whatever one may already think or feel about their life" --- to include those who think their life is trite or a waste. I do believe, unfortunately, that negative emotions can also be enhanced, but that was not my point.

My wording was very clumsy, because I was trying to be careful about terms such as belief, disbelief, believer, atheist, etc., so let me try again, with a more specific example.

I don't believe in a god or gods, but I do see great beauty and wonder in the universe. It is simply amazing that I, as a human, can have this incredible experience, and am sentient enough to appreciate it. I feel music like Bach's, art, performance, writing, math, science, nature, giving birth, and many other things can remind me of and enhance this appreciation.

In that sense, I don't feel Bach's music, for me, points to the existence of a god.

[huckelberry]

It's a big testament to Christianity that Bach chose to work within the official state religion.

But it is possible to show that religion did poison everything, including music, and that Bach got very lucky. From a Christian writer:

https://sharperiron.org/article/how-bac ... vils-music

One dissonant interval the church rejected was the tritone. The tritone, an interval made from three whole steps, sounds very dissonant. In fact, this interval had a nickname that is translated “the Devil in music.” It was forbidden in church music for centuries.

By the time Bach was writing music, conservatives were losing the battle over the tritone. Bach used it in certain situations, and eventually it became even more acceptable. Today, it is a natural and expected component of our music. Even the most conservative among us have no problem with the “Devil’s interval.”

How many Bachs had been strangled out of existence by the heavy hand of religious zealots?

That religion poisons music, look no farther than Mormonism. Only certain instruments are allowed in church and only certain songs. I'm not saying it should allow rock bands, but very few instruments and music pieces are allowed and no cultural instruments or pieces are allowed at all. Only thoroughly westernized converts can express their faith with music in church and even then, they have limited options.

I'm not even sure how much from Bach would be allowed in a Mormon church.

Gadianton, I do not think that there has ever been a time when church was the only occasion for music and church music was the only kind a person could hear or make. Different things can be expressed by different music so I see no surprise that people limit church music according to some conventions. I may like a wide variety of music but at church I prefer traditional. That is not a requirement but modern worship music strikes me as a bit thin. I do prefer a bit more color than Mormon beige.

Reading your linked article I wondered what sort of advancement he was looking to. I can see music exploring new possibilities at times but am unsure if advancement is a good word. Is modern music better than Bach? Well it does different things and I am glad to hear that.

I am circling my simple thought. I am a bit disappointed in the amount of new in music past half century and doubt church has much to do with that.Well there is not a shortage of different kinds a music a person can listen to. We are spoiled with riches provided by recording.

[huckelberry]

Yes, of course.

I think Marcus's comment is reasonable, with the reservation that I doubt Bach fits thinking life is trite or a waste.

Wait, what? My best understanding of this is that you are taking my statement ---
"I think the genius of his music evokes strong responses, in the direction of strengthening whatever one may already think or feel about their life" --- to include those who think their life is trite or a waste. I do believe, unfortunately, that negative emotions can also be enhanced, but that was not my point.

My wording was very clumsy, because I was trying to be careful about terms such as belief, disbelief, believer, atheist, etc., so let me try again, with a more specific example.

I don't believe in a god or gods, but I do see great beauty and wonder in the universe. It is simply amazing that I, as a human, can have this incredible experience, and am sentient enough to appreciate it. I feel music like Bach's, art, performance, writing, math, science, nature, giving birth, and many other things can remind me of and enhance this appreciation.

In that sense, I don't feel Bach's music, for me, points to the existence of a god.

Marcus, I like your clarifying expansion though it fits what I suspected you meant.

[Kishkumen]

Lately, I have been taking in, for a second time, online interviews with Eric Weinstein, former managing director of Thiel Capital. He is an interesting fellow, who has moved in elite circles. He describes himself, although perhaps in not so many words, as a Jewish atheist. I found this interview regarding religion interesting. Herein he makes the case for the importance of atheists' positive appreciation for religious culture.

https://youtu.be/QwylZPb-HWs?si=f-SUNmtY0YH1B7O7

[huckelberry]

Yes, of course.

Does everything that's ugly also point to God?

Morly,
So not happy with the easy question you want to pose the hard one.

It is an old observation to say that ugly is a corruption of beauty so derives all of its meaning and existence from the existence of beauty. I doubt that covers certain arguments against the belief in God, death the central ugly is a fundamental part of this worlds life.

[Morley]

Hmm, it could be:

• Lewis and Clark
• Lewis Armstrong
• Lewis Structure
• Sinclair Lewis
• Lewis Lane
• C. S. Lewis
• Lewis Carroll
• Jerry Lee Lewis
• Lewis Body Dementia
• St. Lewis, Missouri

But then, context is everything. Don't you think?

You forgot Huey Lewis and the News.

But yes, context is everything. What’s your theory on who this “Lewis” is whom hauslern mentioned?

Since only my sixth choice fits hauslern's description, I'm going that.