Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

[I Have Questions]

Mormons have already been indoctrinated to believe that old prophet’s words are no longer relevant.

Just like whatever false revelations Rusty Nelson has for us today will be irrelevant when they are exposed in a few decades.

Mormons need only to be taught to follow whatever their leaders are currently teaching, and to think no further.

It's not a systematic either/or on each and every revelation. If you read my post on page four I brought up the possibility that revelation is time sensitive and also dependent on acceptance/non acceptance.

Then that would be a forecast, not a “revelation”.

Critics want to pin down the prophets. That way when things don't go according to planned expectations they can nail them and call out, "False prophet!"

When someone who claims to speak the will and mind of God gives a revelation that turns out to be incorrect, they are by default a false Prophet. You cannot make false revelations and NOT be a false Prophet. Someone talking to God - who knows the end from the beginning, would give revelations in non confusing, non ambiguous, language. So that even the weakest-minded of His followers can know. All you are doing is reframing LDS Prophetic failure as “success”. It’s like betting on black, it coming up red, and still claiming you win because “higher law”. It’s utter nonsense.

There is really nothing new to see here except for new voices and new things/conditions to complain about.

Well what’s new is that Mormon Prophets have learned not call anything a revelation, specifically. Not to call anything a prophesy, specifically. They’ve introduced the notion of temporary commandments, as a get out of jail free card for when they chop and change policies depending on which way the wind’s blowing.

Remember, revelation is only one component in an otherwise chaotic and unpredictable world. Does God know the end from the beginning? Sure. But that doesn't then mean that decisions and actions in the short term aren't in 'real time' and revelation then, by necessity, fits within that framework.

More words that don’t mean anything. Revelations are unreliable because scary world? Revelation fits within a framework of short terms decisions and actions? Can anyone, other than MG, explain to me what this paragraph actually means?

[I Have Questions]

It seems to me that the problem with the church admitting that John Taylor had a revelation diametrically opposite of another prophet, which the church lied about for 100+ years for what should by now be obvious reasons, is not so easily waved away.

It’s not easily waved away by most rational people. It’s a massive red flag. It casts a cloud over every single thing any Prophet has claimed. Ever. It’s all subject to change depending on the needs of the incumbent President.

It’s worth noting that the last few Prophets, men who say they commune directly with God and have special divine insight into Prophesy and Revelation, recently got caught running a decades long scam designed to hide finances and illegitimately avoid reporting requirements and tax payments. Does that sound like the decisions and actions of people who can see what’s coming because God is talking to them?

[bill4long]

Who the hell is "God"?

The creator of the ways and means by which you find yourself sitting around communicating on this board.

The Creator of:

Earth and Atmosphere. Body with the ability to experience sentience and find meaning. The organization of elements of which all things are made including your device you're using right now. Etc.

It's all something, right? Rather than nothing or matter unorganized.

That would be a bummer.

Regards,
MG

I didn't ask what is "God" or anything about "God's" job description. I asked who.

[MG 2.0]

MG: remember, revelation is only one component in an otherwise chaotic and unpredictable world. Does God know the end from the beginning? Sure. But that doesn't then mean that decisions and actions in the short term aren't in 'real time' and revelation then, by necessity, fits within that framework.

More words that don’t mean anything. Revelations are unreliable because scary world? Revelation fits within a framework of short terms decisions and actions? Can anyone, other than MG, explain to me what this paragraph actually means?

By chaotic I don't been "scary". I think you may know that. Earlier I've talked about things being "unpredictable". Why? Agency of mankind. Now, go back and read, again, what you seem to think is gobbledygook in my last statement and then connect...again...with what I outlined on page four, and you might be able to figure out the 'puzzle'.

What I'm saying here is not so difficult. At the same time, remember, I've said some things in regards to black and white thinking in recent threads. Some folks have a difficult time 'breaking the cycle. I know I did.

The thoughts I've been expressing in this thread and over on the "Complex" thread take what you, gadianton and equality have said and, in my opinion, perform a 'work around' to some of the root problems that non believers express.

I don't want to go back and rehash at this point unless absolutely necessary.

I do appreciate your thoughts and basic civility in some of your recent posts.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...You can’t have it both ways (logically, that is). If the “revelations” from the “prophets” are unreliable, and the members are not supposed to “pin them down,” then any interpretation of what the prophets say, and any individual member’s decision as to whether and how to follow the “revelations” given by the “prophets” is equally valid.

Which would be fine if that’s how the SLC LDS Church actually acted in practice (it’s how a lot of other churches do act, to be sure).

But that’s not how things go in the SLC LDS church, and MG knows it. In the Nelson-led church, it’s “pray, pay, and OBEY,” where obedience is expected to be to the most literal black-and-white interpretation of the latest “revelation” of the current prophet.

And when that latest revelation, like so many before it, turns out to have been “unreliable,” the members who relied on it are gaslit by the cognitive acrobats and told that their reliance was a “blessing” no matter the consequences that may have resulted from their obedience to a bogus “revelation.”

What MG has acknowledged in this thread is that, yes, the prophets’ so-called revelations are unreliable. There is no way of knowing at the time such revelations are given that they won’t be rescinded next week, next month, or 100 years from now. But according to MG, even if the prophets are unreliable (i.e., wrong), it’s a “blessing” to follow them at every turn. This, of course, creates a “no lose” scenario for the LDS prophets who are controlling their followers: whether the prophet is right or wrong, you need to obey and no matter how miserable such obedience might make you, it’s actually a “blessing” for you.

This is cult dynamics at work. It’s the exact same framework used by the Jim Joneses, David Koreshes, and Marshall Applewhites of the world. If the “true” prophets are no more reliable than the obviously “false” prophets, then what’s the difference between a true prophet and a false one? ...

Yes, and it's pretty hypocritical to denounce those cult dynamics and call others' 'revelations' fake, for no reason other than "I know MY church is the true one." Of course, every person following "the Jim Joneses, David Koreshes, and Marshall Applewhites of the world" said exactly the same thing. They followed their leaders' revelations faithfully, also.

[I Have Questions]

More words that don’t mean anything. Revelations are unreliable because scary world? Revelation fits within a framework of short terms decisions and actions? Can anyone, other than MG, explain to me what this paragraph actually means?

By chaotic I don't been "scary". I think you may know that. Earlier I've talked about things being "unpredictable". Why? Agency of mankind. Now, go back and read, again, what you seem to think is gobbledygook in my last statement and then connect...again...with what I outlined on page four, and you might be able to figure out the 'puzzle'.

This is another example of you being unnecessarily rude to somebody. It’s also an example of your misplaced pomposity.

There are a number of people in my life that I consider 100% reliable. I can count on them to tell me the truth. I can count on them to have my best interests at heart, and to not have hidden agendas. They say what they mean and they mean what they say. They practice what they preach. Mormon Prophets are not in that group.

Revelations from a God that knows the end from the beginning should, by the nature of what they are and who they’re from, be 100% accurate and reliable in their information and statements and pronouncements. If they’re not, then they are simply the words of men with their own agendas trying to manipulate others.

Your talk about revelations being subject to the vagaries of life simply renders God impotent and unable to issue revelations that will have standing. On that basis, why bother?

But the actual problem is not you, it’s your Church. Your Church does not throw in the excuses that Revelations are unreliable…because people. No. Your Church says you can always trust the living Prophet. So when the living Prophet (in this case Taylor) reveals that God wants his Church to live the law of polygamy, always, that statement should be both trusted as correct, and stand the test of time. It did neither. There’s a host of such revelations that have been shown to be nothing of the sort. You know this, which is why you seek to relegate “Revelations” to “forecasts and suggestions”. The Church also knows this, which is why Presidents have stopped announcing “revelations”. The last time someone did that (Nelson), he had to do a U-Turn on it within weeks.

The hallmark of a divine revelation should be that, in time, it is shown to have provided insight that could not have been gleaned by humanity any other way at the time it was “revealed”. We can test the veracity of revelations in hindsight with real accuracy. Guess how that turns out for the credibility of Mormon Prophets?

[MG 2.0]

By chaotic I don't been "scary". I think you may know that. Earlier I've talked about things being "unpredictable". Why? Agency of mankind. Now, go back and read, again, what you seem to think is gobbledygook in my last statement and then connect...again...with what I outlined on page four, and you might be able to figure out the 'puzzle'.

This is another example of you being unnecessarily rude to somebody. It’s also an example of your misplaced pomposity.

Get off your high horse, IHQ.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Revelations from a God that knows the end from the beginning should, by the nature of what they are and who they’re from, be 100% accurate and reliable in their information and statements and pronouncements. If they’re not, then they are simply the words of men with their own agendas trying to manipulate others.

Then that's where we will have to leave it. I don't believe this to be so and the evidence supports my view.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...Your talk about revelations being subject to the vagaries of life simply renders God impotent and unable to issue revelations that will have standing. On that basis, why bother?

But the actual problem is not you, it’s your Church. Your Church does not throw in the excuses that Revelations are unreliable…because people. No. Your Church says you can always trust the living Prophet. So when the living Prophet (in this case Taylor) reveals that God wants his Church to live the law of polygamy, always, that statement should be both trusted as correct, and stand the test of time. It did neither. There’s a host of such revelations that have been shown to be nothing of the sort. You know this, which is why you seek to relegate “Revelations” to “forecasts and suggestions”. The Church also knows this, which is why Presidents have stopped announcing “revelations”. The last time someone did that (Nelson), he had to do a U-Turn on it within weeks.

This is the saddest part. LDS people have to tie themselves in illogical, nonsensical knots to support their leaders in this area even when the evidence shows the leaders are wrong, or dishonest, or not trustworthy. It happens over and over and over. In no other aspect of their lives would people behave so illogically.

The hallmark of a divine revelation should be that, in time, it is shown to have provided insight that could not have been gleaned by humanity any other way at the time it was “revealed”. We can test the veracity of revelations in hindsight with real accuracy. Guess how that turns out for the credibility of Mormon Prophets?

When the revelation process is not real, it stands no chance of passing this test. The Mormon religious leaders have set themselves up for this failure repeatedly, but lately they seem to realize what people see.

[MG 2.0]

LDS people have to tie themselves in illogical, nonsensical knots to support their leaders in this area even when the evidence shows the leaders are wrong, or dishonest, or not trustworthy.

I think for the most part they are usually right, honest, and trustworthy. But they, along with the rest of us, come short of the glory of God and have need for repentance and a Savior.

He that says he/she has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in them.

Regards,
MG