WW2 politics, and leading up to the War and beyond...

[canpakes]

Imagine the utopic heights the board would reach if the community was comprised of only those who were like you - people who see themselves as intellectually gifted, super enlightened, and extremely well informed (a.k.a. - Politically left leaning board members)

I realize that it was a very long time ago, but I remember a time where this community used to welcome any/all opinions/thoughts/perspectives. I remember a time that this community used to exhibit grace and was willing to extend such grace fairly frequently. I remember a time that I learned something from someone on a very regular basis - or I was provoked to think - or rethink - or I went through a process of consideration to change a stance - or I was forced to reflect about various things - or I was grateful to have been shown things. I could go on and on.

Those days are long gone.

Interesting approach:
1. Snipe at someone,
2. Complain about sniping.

Board drama and conflict seems to cycle pretty regularly. If you take a trip back to Page 1 of this board and start reading forward, you’ll discover that there was no lack of ‘spirited discussion’ even then.

[Some Schmo]

Board drama and conflict seems to cycle pretty regularly. If you take a trip back to Page 1 of this board and start reading forward, you’ll discover that there was no lack of ‘spirited discussion’ even then.

Not only that, but we all have experience with each other and know who posts in good faith and who doesn't. If somebody thinks the board has changed, maybe they should look in the mirror for the reasons.

But of course, that would require rigorous honesty, and well... you know...

[Chap]

My point remains, regardless of the translation chosen: Markk would be a wiser (or more intelligent, or more truly knowing - take your pick!) person by far if he took Confucius' advice, and realised that he should steer clear of discussions of a field where all he (thinks that) he knows is based on a few online videos and podcasts. Do you dispute that?

Well, do you dispute that?

Here is what I dispute (And the reason I decided to engage you on this thread): I get very weary of folks like you who suggest that the opinions/perspectives/thoughts of other board members are not worthy of serious discussion (as if serious discussion is common on this board nowadays) or that you will be determining who should steer clear of discussing things. It's extraordinarily arrogant and it's exceedingly snooty.

Imagine the utopic heights the board would reach if the community was comprised of only those who were like you - people who see themselves as intellectually gifted, super enlightened, and extremely well informed (a.k.a. - Politically left leaning board members)

I realize that it was a very long time ago, but I remember a time where this community used to welcome any/all opinions/thoughts/perspectives. I remember a time that this community used to exhibit grace and was willing to extend such grace fairly frequently. I remember a time that I learned something from someone on a very regular basis - or I was provoked to think - or rethink - or I went through a process of consideration to change a stance - or I was forced to reflect about various things - or I was grateful to have been shown things. I could go on and on.

Those days are long gone.

A number of posters (including myself) have pointed out, with the citation of detailed historical evidence as well as with logical analysis of his claims, the ways in which Markk is deeply misled by his uncritical use of the work of certain internet personalities. That takes time, and that takes energy. I admit that it is a little difficult to continue to respond politely to a person who is so ignorant as to think that it was Winston Churchill who declared war on Germany in 1939, but I agree one has to make an effort in that direction.

On the whole, however dialogue with Markk has been a deeply unrewarding task. Markk insists, over and over again, despite all the attempts made to show him that he needs to to re-evaluate the claims he repeats, that his original positions (so far as he has ever stated them clearly) are basically true. There comes a time when one simply must point out that Markk is suffering from what theologians might call 'invincible ignorance', due in part to his extreme reluctance to concede that other people may know more about his favourite topics than he does.

He just can't admit that there are things he doesn't know. That is not evidence of wisdom, intelligence or true knowledge, rather the reverse. I however do, on the whole, know what I do not know (which is a lot). That is why I don't make assertions without first examining the evidence as carefully as I can. I suggest that should be seen as a sign of modesty, not of arrogance.

[Markk]

You missed the context of the temporary solution was and is in the context of the Ghettos.

Not at all.

You seem to have bogged yourself down in offering the ‘temporary solution issue of killing Jews in ghettos as somehow type of validation of Cooper’s narrative, which is not the focus of Cooper’s claim about Nazis feeling bad.

There’s no difference in the end result of killing someone in a ghetto, and killing someone in a mobile gas van, a killing center, or a concentration camp. The end result is always death.

Trying to portray Nazi concerns with not being able to kill Jews in Location A versus Location B as somehow a reflection of their empathetic attitudes is what I find problematic. Maybe you’re prepared to accept that conflation, but I do not.

Two different topics, the Temporary Measure of putting the Jews in the Ghetto, which I was discussing as a temporary solution to detain the Jews until the figured out how to deal with...."the Jewish problem."


You are just conflating two entirely different subjects. You came in late to the conversation and are now, rather unsuccessfully, trying to tell me, what I was discussing and why, and you just can't admit it.

My point about Cooper and still is that his claim, which was disputed by some, is that the Germans were no prepared for the Millions of political prisoners, POW's, and Jew's.....which is just a historical fact.

You are just making stuff up and trying to put words in my mouth, I never said in any context.

[canpakes]

Two different topics, the Temporary Measure of putting the Jews in the Ghetto, which I was discussing as a temporary solution to detain the Jews until the figured out how to deal with...."the Jewish problem."

But that wasn’t what Morley was talking about. It is indeed a slightly different topic and direction, which is why I questioned why you were bringing in talk of a ‘temporary solution’ of logistics in response to Cooper’s apparent bemoaning of Sad Nazis who were forced to kill Jews because they had no place to put them, or were unable to keep them from going hungry after rounding them up or corralling them into ghettos or camps.

viewtopic.php?p=2897838#p2897838

You are just conflating two entirely different subjects. You came in late to the conversation and are now, rather unsuccessfully, trying to tell me, what I was discussing and why, and you just can't admit it.

You have that backwards. : D You’re conflating related topics. And I’m asking you why you went that direction, and if this is your way of demonstrating your belief in the Sad Nazi storyline.

My point about Cooper and still is that his claim, which was disputed by some, is that the Germans were no prepared for the Millions of political prisoners, POW's, and Jew's.....which is just a historical fact.

That’s nice, but that’s not discussing the Sad Nazi claim. That’s your conflation of logistics with Morley’s focus. No one is disputing that moving around over 6 million people was a logistical challenge.

You are just making stuff up and trying to put words in my mouth, I never said in any context.

I’m not putting words in your mouth when I’m linking to your posts and asking you if you believe the Sad Nazi storyline.

You’ve spent a whole lot of time dodging two questions, neither of which even included the word, ‘temporary’.

1. Markk, can you explain why the Nazis “kept the Jews in ghettos and worked and starved them to death for the most part, when they were not beating and shooting them”… but then felt stressed when they rounded them up and couldn’t starve them fast enough while stuffed into concentration camps?

2. Do you believe Cooper’s claim?

[Chap]

Gee willikins canpakes!

Dontcha' know you can't go talking to poor old Markk like that? I mean, it makes you look arrogant, elitist and even worse LEFT WING.

I know that because Ceeboo told us.

[Marcus]

I had to go back a ways to try to figure out what Markk is saying. I started with the link canpakes gave:

Morley: At one point, Cooper says, “Rather than let them starve, wouldn’t it be more humane to finish them off?” He then suggests that gas chambers were a way to minimize suffering. Neo-Nazis have long held that the camps were labor centers, not death factories, and that deaths were due to famine or disease. Cooper doesn’t outright deny the Holocaust—but explains it as a kind of bureaucratic blundering. The Nazis then really had no choice but to kill the Jews.

That is just false and a spin of what he actual said in context. Cooper was quoting history, a Nazi commandant that was actually in charge of starving the Jews, that you're some how implying did not happen, that is in the mind of Neo-Nazis?

He wasn't 'quoting history,' he was wrong. From a press release by the World Holocaust Remembrance Center:

Cooper attempts to prove his mistaken point by quoting a letter supposedly from a German Wehrmacht officer, where he indicates that the murder of civilians and POWS in the USSR was out of “humane” concerns due to insufficient food supplies. This, too, is patently false. In reality, the letter by SS officer Rolf-Heinz Höppner on 16 July 1941, advocated for the murder of all the Jews in the western region of occupied Poland, called by the Nazis the Warthegau. Misrepresenting this as anything but intentional mass murder distorts history and downplays the Nazis responsibility for the Holocaust and for their other crimes.
https://www.yadvashem.org/press-release ... 16-52.html

A more recent comment from Markk:

...My point about Cooper and still is that his claim, which was disputed by some, is that the Germans were no prepared for the Millions of political prisoners, POW's, and Jew's.....which is just a historical fact...

Again, the World Holocaust Remembrance Center disagrees.

Recently, Darryl Cooper, in a podcast with Tucker Carlson, made statements that grossly misrepresent the German Nazi regime’s actions during Operation Barbarossa in 1941. Cooper claimed that the Nazis were "unprepared" to handle millions of prisoners of war and political dissidents, suggesting their brutality was a result of poor planning. This statement is patently false. The German invasion of the Soviet Union was long-planned and included genocidal strategies of dealing with the local Jewish population not as a response to logistical challenges, but as an ideological one...

Misrepresenting this as anything but intentional mass murder distorts history and downplays the Nazis responsibility for the Holocaust and for their other crimes.

Head of Yad Vashem's International Institute for Holocaust Research Prof. Dan Michman states:

"Mr. Cooper isn't known for having done any scholarly research on Nazism and the Holocaust, and his statements in this interview clearly demonstrate his ignorance."

It is crucial to uphold the truth of these events. Approximately six million Jews, including some four million killed near their homes in Eastern Europe, were murdered as part of the Nazis’ systematic genocide called by them “The Final Solution to the Jewish Question.” Any attempt to distort these historical facts or explain this away sanitizes these genocidal crimes and dishonors the memory of the victims.
https://www.yadvashem.org/press-release ... 16-52.html

[Chap]

More arrogant elitist left-wing stuff! Poor victimised Markk.

Ceeboo will have to go and have a lie down to recover from all this hate speech.

[Kishkumen]

I am really puzzled about Markk's apparent support for Holocaust denialism.

It's pretty creepy.

I don't think you want to continue down this road, Markk.

[ceeboo]

Ceeboo will have to go and have a lie down to recover from all this hate speech.