Vogel Schools Jacob Hansen on Book of Abraham

[drumdude]

The LDS Church will be living down the claim of the inferiority of Africans as taught in the Book of Abraham for quite some time. I can eventually see all African converts leaving and missionaries being banned from the continent.

Of course, the Church can always repudiate the Book of Abraham, but they will never issue an apology.

I think that the doctrines taught in the Book of Abraham:

Premortal Existence
Council in Heaven and Foreordination
Exaltation and Eternal Progression
Plurality of Gods and Creation "Ex Materia"
Specific Teachings on the Priesthood

…are of primary significance. The side issues that are still being discussed by not only critics but by apologists and other members of the church are there, but the ‘truths of eternity’ consisting of doctrines that ‘taste good’ will most likely not go away. The idea of premortal existence and eternal progression make a lot of sense…innately…to a lot of people. The other doctrines listed provide ‘entry points’ to ‘deeper meaning’ for exploration to those that seek the deep things of God that go beyond the superficial.

Some folks get stuck on the non essentials.

Regards,
MG

If you're going to argue that the basics are the most important then I would simply follow Christ and throw out all the weird Mormon side stuff.

It really doesn't make any sense for Him to allow the New Testament to be insufficient. It makes a lot more sense that a con artist created a superfluous add on. Christ even warned that such things would happen.

[MG 2.0]

I think that the doctrines taught in the Book of Abraham:

Premortal Existence
Council in Heaven and Foreordination
Exaltation and Eternal Progression
Plurality of Gods and Creation "Ex Materia"
Specific Teachings on the Priesthood

…are of primary significance. The side issues that are still being discussed by not only critics but by apologists and other members of the church are there, but the ‘truths of eternity’ consisting of doctrines that ‘taste good’ will most likely not go away. The idea of premortal existence and eternal progression make a lot of sense…innately…to a lot of people. The other doctrines listed provide ‘entry points’ to ‘deeper meaning’ for exploration to those that seek the deep things of God that go beyond the superficial.

Some folks get stuck on the non essentials.

Regards,
MG

If you're going to argue that the basics are the most important then I would simply follow Christ and throw out all the weird Mormon side stuff.

It really doesn't make any sense for Him to allow the New Testament to be insufficient. It makes a lot more sense that a con artist created a superfluous add on. Christ even warned that such things would happen.

By non essentials I am not referring to what you might think I’m referring. As it is, I do think the basics of the gospel ARE important. Love, charity, service, atonement, sacrifice, Jesus, etc.

But there is more. Much more. God would desire us to have all that he has. And that’s more than sitting around playing a harp for eternity.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

The Book of Abraham contains some essential doctrines taught as truths in the LDS Church:

Doctrines of Mormonism are doctrines of ugly Mormonism and the Mormons can make of that what they will. Extra wives or whatever!

But, when it comes to real HISTORY such as the rise and creation of the nation state of Egypt -- the Mormons can shut their f-ing mouths because they pervert history and truth. Take your Book of Abraham and throw it in the trash where it belongs! I am here to slap the mouth of the Mormon church. SLAP! And Mormon Egyptologists are corrupt liars and betray the ancient Egyptians. SLAP!

The world will not have it.

I will dismiss you, MG, without further argument.

Depart!

Amen.

[Shulem]

By non essentials I am not referring to what you might think I’m referring. As it is, I do think the basics of the gospel ARE important. Love, charity, service, atonement, sacrifice, Jesus, etc.

"Love, charity, service"

These are factors and traits had by humanity in general regardless of religious beliefs or lack thereof! Let's be clear that religion does not have a monopoly on these things. Religion likes to claim they own these things as if it's the gospel. But the truth is they are for everyone regardless of race, color, religion, etc. An atheist can be a loving person full of charity!

"atonement, sacrifice, Jesus, etc."

Now you're talking about religion and how these things are incorporated into what they call "gospel". To that, I say, "no thanks."

[MG 2.0]

By non essentials I am not referring to what you might think I’m referring. As it is, I do think the basics of the gospel ARE important. Love, charity, service, atonement, sacrifice, Jesus, etc.

"Love, charity, service"

These are factors and traits had by humanity in general regardless of religious beliefs or lack thereof! Let's be clear that religion does not have a monopoly on these things. Religion likes to claim they own these things as if it's the gospel. But the truth is they are for everyone regardless of race, color, religion, etc. An atheist can be a loving person full of charity!

"atonement, sacrifice, Jesus, etc."

Now you're talking about religion and how these things are incorporated into what they call "gospel". To that, I say, "no thanks."

I think you made that decision a long time ago.

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

I think you made that decision a long time ago.

And I also made the decision to reject Book of Abraham claims that Egypt was founded by a woman in 2300 BC and opt to go with conventional Egyptology.

How about you?

[MG 2.0]

I think you made that decision a long time ago.

And I also made the decision to reject Book of Abraham claims that Egypt was founded by a woman in 2300 BC and opt to go with conventional Egyptology.

How about you?

There are some unresolved issues there. Short chronology vs. accepted chronology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Rohl)

I can let that sit on a shelf for the sake of what I see as more important things. Things that, for me, seem to lead towards salvation rather than damnation.

Regards,
MG

[Everybody Wang Chung]

And I also made the decision to reject Book of Abraham claims that Egypt was founded by a woman in 2300 BC and opt to go with conventional Egyptology.

How about you?

There are some unresolved issues there. Short chronology vs. accepted chronology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Rohl)

I can let that sit on a shelf for the sake of what I see as more important things. Things that, for me, seem to lead towards salvation rather than damnation.

Ah, yes, the classic "I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I'm just a guy who thinks all of modern archaeology is wrong for the sake of my personal spiritual journey." It's so humble, really. You're just subtly implying that all the world's most brilliant historians and archaeologists are missing the obvious, and only you have the secret decoder ring to true history.

The truth isn't about pesky things like peer-reviewed journals and carbon dating, but about "things that... lead towards salvation rather than damnation." It's the ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card for any inconvenient fact: "This doesn't align with my eternal reward, so clearly it's wrong.

So by all means, let it "sit on a shelf," right next to the idea that the Earth is flat, Russell M. Nelson is a prophet, that vaccines contain mind-control chips and the Book of Mormon events/civilizations are real. I'm sure it's much more comfortable there than in the cold, unforgiving light of academic consensus and reality.

[Mag’ladroth]

If you're going to argue that the basics are the most important then I would simply follow Christ and throw out all the weird Mormon side stuff.

It really doesn't make any sense for Him to allow the New Testament to be insufficient. It makes a lot more sense that a con artist created a superfluous add on. Christ even warned that such things would happen.

By non essentials I am not referring to what you might think I’m referring. As it is, I do think the basics of the gospel ARE important. Love, charity, service, atonement, sacrifice, Jesus, etc.

But there is more. Much more. God would desire us to have all that he has. And that’s more than sitting around playing a harp for eternity.

Regards,
MG

MG all those words you used are loaded with different meaning for the LDS than the Christian. Because of that Mormonism is like a bowl of skittles painted to look like M&M’s. So no one can really tell what your non essentials are. Mostly because Mormonism goes to great pains to shuffle everything around and hide history and change doctrine at a whim. Evidence being the great effort to appear to be nothing more than another Christian denomination.


Also note where your ignorance of orthodox Christian belief leads you to mock it without knowledge. Google “Beatific Vision” and read Aquinas.

[Shulem]

And I also made the decision to reject Book of Abraham claims that Egypt was founded by a woman in 2300 BC and opt to go with conventional Egyptology.

How about you?

There are some unresolved issues there. Short chronology vs. accepted chronology.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Rohl)

I can let that sit on a shelf for the sake of what I see as more important things.

Many years ago while working as an apologist, I carefully digested David Rohl's book you linked above and did everything I could to try and make it work and squeeze a shorter Egyptian chronology into the time allotted by the Bible which was adopted by Smith. I worked through every imaginable theory in effort to come up with a new chronology. It does not work! I've spent countless hours on that project only to come to the conclusion that Egypt was indeed a nation state around 3000 BC. There is no way around it, no way over it, no way under it! The Bible is wrong! So also is Joseph Smith.

The shelf in which you set these things is your own fear in realizing that maybe it's not really what you think it is -- or in other words, Smith was a liar.

There, go figure.

David Rohl? Been there done that! Hours and hours and hours...and it's impossible that Egypt was founded in 2300 BC by a woman and her son. Impossible.

Hey, would you like to take a look at my old apologetic webpage that touches on these things?

Here are a couple of links that demonstrate my work on this very subject in which you think I'm ignorant:

"Pharaohs & Kings" (Based on information from David Rohl's Book) (by Paul Osborne)

SEARCHING FOR THE TRUE CHRONOLOGY OF ANCIENT EGYPT (by Paul Osborne)