Joseph Smith--the best 'wing man' Brigham Young ever had

[Marcus]

Anyway, as a relatively small Christian organization, you're dwarfed by other Christian churches.

Malkie, you are correct, even after mg's attempt at adding qualifications:

...You seemingly brushed off the size/influence/international factor quickly.

What I said was that the CofJCofLDS is the largest...by far...of the Restoration churches. Why you don't see that as an indicator of the 'fruits of the restoration/gospel' is illogical. Especially in view of some of the scriptural prophecy that seems to point towards influence and size having some degree of importance. You might think that before Christ comes that there would be a church upon the earth with an international influence. At least to the degree that Christianity is allowed to grow and have any influence...

For example, consider the Jehovah's Witnesses, also considered a 'restoration church,' along with Mormonism:

...the term "Restorationism" is used as a descriptive term for unrelated Restorationist groups which were formed during the eras of the Great Awakenings, such as the Christadelphians (Greek: 'Brothers of Christ'), Swedenborgians (i.e., The New Church), Irvingians (the largest of which is the New Apostolic Church), The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (i.e., Mormonism), Jehovah's Witnesses (from the tetragrammaton for God), La Luz del Mundo (Spanish: 'the Light of the World'), and Iglesia ni Cristo (Tagalog: 'Church of Christ').[5][6][7][8] These Restorationist groups share a belief that historic Christianity lost the true faith during the Great Apostasy and that the Church needed to be restored.[9][10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationism

The Jehovah's Witnesses organization has an international presence and is a far larger group that exceeds the LDS church in satisfying mg's requirements:

...Jehovah's Witnesses have an active presence in most countries. In 2024, Jehovah's Witnesses reported approximately 8.8 million publishers—the term they use for members actively involved in preaching—in about 119,000 congregations.[6] ...

The official published membership statistics, such as those above, include only those who submit reports for their personal ministry.[31] As a result, only about half of those who self-identify as Jehovah's Witnesses in independent demographic studies are considered active by the faith itself.[32][33]

So, the JW organization counts only clearly active members and has about a 50% active rate, unlike the LDS church, which counts dead people, those who forgot they had a baseball baptism, newborns who aren't even baptized yet, etc., and has millions of inactives equaling at least 60-75% of its "membership."

I was reminded of another church mentioned last time we had this discussion and mg tried this argument, If I recall correctly it was Res Ipsa who noted the international presence and size of 7th Day Adventists, a religion that also dwarfs the LDS:

The world church is governed by a General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, with smaller regions administered by divisions, unions, local conferences, and local missions. The Seventh-day Adventist Church is as of 2016 "one of the fastest-growing and most widespread churches worldwide",[8] with a worldwide baptized membership of over 22 million people. As of May 2007, it was the twelfth-largest Protestant religious body in the world and the sixth-largest highly international religious body. It is ethnically and culturally diverse and maintains a missionary presence in over 215 countries and territories.[15][16] The church operates over 7,500 schools including over 100 post-secondary institutions, numerous hospitals, and publishing houses worldwide, a humanitarian aid organization known as the Adventist Development and Relief Agency (ADRA) and tax-exempt businesses such as Sanitarium,[17] the proceeds of which contribute to the church's charitable and religious activities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-d ... ist_Church

Bottom line, mg's argument that LDS size and international influence are larger than any other restoration church is wrong. His use of this (incorrect) storyline as evidence that a god thinks his religion is the one and only 'true' one is illogical and baseless.

[I Have Questions]

It’s interesting that MG conflates ‘fruits’ with ‘claimed membership’ as a way of justifying his continued belief in the religious tradition within which he was born, raised, and existed within his whole life.

As everyone has now pointed out, more than once, if “number of members” is how you determine the true Church, well it ain’t the SLC LDS branch of the Mormon religion. What he is trying to do is work backwards. He wants to find a set of criteria that only his religion meets, and then declare that criteria the only measure of the true Church. It’s blatantly intellectually dishonest.

[malkie]

You think so. Clearly the FLDS would disagree with your choice of this specific criterion, at this time, right? But if the Mormon god has chosen the FLDS, and if size really does matter, then the FLDS can grow to whatever size is required.

I haven't seen any evidence of this ever happening. Of course, you are free to believe that it could.

Anyway, as a relatively small Christian organization, you're dwarfed by other Christian churches.

You seemingly brushed off the size/influence/international factor quickly.

What I said was that the CofJCofLDS is the largest...by far...of the Restoration churches. Why you don't see that as an indicator of the 'fruits of the restoration/gospel' is illogical. Especially in view of some of the scriptural prophecy that seems to point towards influence and size having some degree of importance. You might think that before Christ comes that there would be a church upon the earth with an international influence. At least to the degree that Christianity is allowed to grow and have any influence.

What? You think we should stick to sects of Mormonism? Why? If size really does matter, you should expand your horizons. Clearly, the restoration churches are small fry.

If God appeared to Joseph Smith and promised him that an important work would be done through him that would have influence throughout the world, again, I would posit that the CofJCofLDS comes much closer to fitting the bill than any other restoration movement/church.

Do we even need to consider only Christian churches?

I suppose that would depend on whether or not Jesus was the Son of God and lives today. Views on this range all over the place.

On the other topic, different people claiming to get different answers from supposedly the same god is still an issue - a big issue, a huge issue, even. "Gott mit uns" in WW II is a good example in that the Christians among the allies were convinced that the very same "gott" was with them.

Perhaps the god in question is just a really poor communicator. But I still think that the most reasonable solution to the problem is that there is no god at the other side of the conversation. If you were to choose to believe that, instead of choosing to believe in the Mormon god, all sorts of problems would disappear.

That's interesting. So, God has called prophets and directs His work through them, and you call God a poor communicator? I think what you might be saying is that if that communication doesn't happen in the fashion/way that you would like/dictate or think it ought to that it doesn't happen at all?

Regards,
MG

I'll reply later tonight - other more interesting/important things to do.

Let me just say this, though: your comment is, of necessity, full of hypotheticals (ugh!) and special pleadings that the vast majority of the world's population find totally unconvincing.

[drumdude]

[MG 2.0]

I haven't seen any evidence of this ever happening. Of course, you are free to believe that it could.



You seemingly brushed off the size/influence/international factor quickly.

What I said was that the CofJCofLDS is the largest...by far...of the Restoration churches. Why you don't see that as an indicator of the 'fruits of the restoration/gospel' is illogical. Especially in view of some of the scriptural prophecy that seems to point towards influence and size having some degree of importance. You might think that before Christ comes that there would be a church upon the earth with an international influence. At least to the degree that Christianity is allowed to grow and have any influence.



If God appeared to Joseph Smith and promised him that an important work would be done through him that would have influence throughout the world, again, I would posit that the CofJCofLDS comes much closer to fitting the bill than any other restoration movement/church.



I suppose that would depend on whether or not Jesus was the Son of God and lives today. Views on this range all over the place.



That's interesting. So, God has called prophets and directs His work through them, and you call God a poor communicator? I think what you might be saying is that if that communication doesn't happen in the fashion/way that you would like/dictate or think it ought to that it doesn't happen at all?

Regards,
MG

I'll reply later tonight - other more interesting/important things to do.

Let me just say this, though: your comment is, of necessity, full of hypotheticals (ugh!) and special pleadings that the vast majority of the world's population find totally unconvincing.

I realize there are 'if then's' in my post. Obviously because I'm a believer. Sure, I realize that you and many other people don't subscribe to the teachings of the CofJCofLDS. But that shouldn't stop those that do believe from stating their own views just as you are free to now demonstrate the fact that you are claiming to be purely/exclusively fact driven. Although, I must say, you have said some things in your post that don't seem to have an apples-to-apples correlation and you're trying to fit all of Mormonism (breakoffs and splinter groups) into the same box to make a point. I think you are pressed to do this by necessity in order to keep the narrative alive that you subscribe to and would like to see 'carry the day'. Same/similar thing going on with gott/god.

You seem to want to throw ALL the gods out.

If (another hypothetical) there is a God it seems as though He is being tossed out with all the wannabees. I don't think they can all be tossed out by default. Anthropic/fine tuning principle seems to lean away from that 'hypothesis' and towards something more than what we can know while in the flesh. We can only see the evidence of something greater than ourselves.

Granted, that's a choice. That is, believing that there is something beyond our puny brains. Some punier than others, right? (I'm referring to what critics might think about those "duped" folks that have religious beliefs and more so those poor deluded souls that believe in the Restoration narrative).

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

...If (another hypothetical) there is a God it seems as though He is being tossed out with all the wannabees. I don't think they can all be tossed out by default...

Of course they can. What nonsense.

[Marcus]

Let me just say this, though: your comment is, of necessity, full of hypotheticals (ugh!) and special pleadings that the vast majority of the world's population find totally unconvincing.

Not to mention multiple statements he made to support his 'testimony' that are NOT factual about the size and international presence of churches Mg defines as 'restoration.'

[Limnor]

I guess you’d need to agree on a definition of fruit.

To me a fruit of a religion is leading people to be more loving, honest, compassionate, and just.

If a fruit of religion, regardless of its numbers of adherents, produces fear, control, secrecy, or blind loyalty, the fruit is spoiled.

I think the Mormon church produces some of the former, but the latter is concerning.

[MG 2.0]

I guess you’d need to agree on a definition of fruit.

That is an important observation. I’m NOT saying that the growth/size of the SL church is the “fruit”. I am saying that it, the size, is evidence of the fruits in the lives of its members. Many throughout the world have taken Alma 32 to heart. Sure, commonalities can be found between the CofJCofLDS and the break off schisms. But the fruit hasn’t manifest itself in these break offs in a way that would seem to demonstrate the injunction of the Savior to go throughout the world and teach the gospel.

To me a fruit of a religion is leading people to be more loving, honest, compassionate, and just.

I agree with that statement. This is why I have, many times, said that the LDS Church is NOT the only faith/philosophical system that ‘preaches’ the Golden Rule.

If a fruit of religion, regardless of its numbers of adherents, produces fear, control, secrecy, or blind loyalty, the fruit is spoiled.

I agree again. If I believed that what you said was true I would not be a member of the church.

I think the Mormon church produces some of the former, but the latter is concerning.

It would be if that was true. There is nothing in the theology of the church that promotes or teaches any of the things you’ve mentioned.Unfortunately, there have been individuals who could have been more Christlike. But there have been many, many, members and leaders since the beginning days of the restoration that have been very good examples of following in the footsteps of Jesus.

We tend to focus on the exceptions of when those, that we might expect to be doing better than the average, fail to do so. The fact is, we ALL fall short of the glory of God and we all need repentance and forgiveness for wrongdoing.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

I guess you’d need to agree on a definition of fruit.

That is an important observation. I’m NOT saying that the growth/size of the SL church is the “fruit”. I am saying that it, the size, is evidence of the fruits in the lives of its members...

??? Less than six hours ago, that's exactly what he said, in fact mg said it was "illogical" to not see that:

...What I said was that the CofJCofLDS is the largest...by far...of the Restoration churches. Why you don't see that as an indicator of the 'fruits of the restoration/gospel' is illogical. Especially in view of some of the scriptural prophecy that seems to point towards influence and size having some degree of importance...

[bolding added.] What caused the flip flop?? Maybe it was the posting of facts that disproved his assertion.