Not Your Standard First Vision Thread

[MG 2.0]

demonstrated MG's failed arithmetic.

MG is a liar and a deceiver. I see through him with my own eyes.

He's rotten to the core.

PS. grindael, RIP, bro. I will kick MG's sorry ass for you, every time.

I would just as well have conversations with those that aren't carrying around grudges from the past...especially when they are over inflated and one sided.

One more person that just went to 'ignore'. We had some interesting conversations didn't we, Shulem? Best wishes to you.

Sooner or later, I suppose there will only be a few that I will entertain to communicate with. By the way, when I don't respond to certain posters it is most probably because they are on 'ignore' and I'm not seeing their posts. Saves a lot of 'he said/she said' crap that has gone on in the past.

Obviously, that will also limit my posting. That's probably a good thing in the eyes of many. Some will call me a chicken sh**. Be that as it may, I've spent WAY too much time going around in circles with certain posters.

Regards,
MG

[Everybody Wang Chung]

demonstrated MG's failed arithmetic.

MG is a liar and a deceiver. I see through him with my own eyes.

He's rotten to the core.

PS. grindael, RIP, bro. I will kick MG's sorry ass for you, every time.

Shulem,

I agree with you about Fibber's despicable behavior. He really is rotten to the core.

That's some great missionary work, Fibber!

[Kishkumen]

Here’s a take you probably haven’t seen: the First Vision wasn’t originally Joseph’s at all.

It was Alvin’s.

According to this view, before his death in 1823, Alvin experienced what he described as “the Lord” appearing to him, but that “Lord” was actually a composite of Joseph Smith Sr., Sidney Rigdon, and Luman Walters, the three main spiritual influences (with Rigdon as a gap) around the Smith family at the time.

Alvin wrote about that encounter - his own seeing of the Father and the Son as described - in Ether, and that personal experience became the seed for what we know in the Book of Mormon in Ether.

Alvin merged the human figures into a single being he called “the Lord.”

Joseph retold Alvin’s experience as his own First Vision, beginning with a “the Lord”, and then with variants including the Father and the Son and a concourse, more than one, of messengers.

In other words, the founding vision of Mormonism began as Alvin’s experience as reflected in Ether, later retold and consolidated through multiple revisions, reframed, and eventually canonized by his younger brother.

I can see the First Vision being Alvin's experience, but I don't know why he couldn't have simply had a vision as many other people were at the time. Why do you think he had to merge three regular people he allegedly knew into a vision from God? I really like your idea about Ether's vision of the Lord being Alvin's First Vision.

[Shulem]

RIP, Alvin.

.....Joseph Smith Jr., absorbing the story after Alvin’s death, reframed it as scripture in the.....

.....but I don't know why he couldn't have simply had a vision as many other people were at the time.

I can only imagine how difficult it must have been for the Smith family to have to witness the suffering and death of Alvin who unfortunately was poisoned by what was believed to have been a medicine prescribed by an attending physician seeking to cure his ailments. Can you imagine having to drink mercury? Little wonder poor Alvin was hesitant to take the dose and when he died his mother was furious that a quack doctor should be permitted to practice medicine and entirely blamed him for killing her son. The Smith household must have experienced terrible grief and teenage Joseph was devastated at the loss of his big brother. I feel compassion for them.

And yet, at that juncture, the Smith family had to deal with what may have seemed like a shortcoming and failure to receive the biblical promise:

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I wonder if Joseph's Book of Mormon storytelling may have been influenced by the ministration of poison or deadly substances designed to inflict harm on others such as we read in the Bible about Elisha and the poisoned pottage (2 Kings 4:38-41)?

For example:

And it came to pass that Amalickiah caused that one of his servants should administer poison by degrees to Lehonti,
that he died.

And many times did they attempt to administer of their wine to the Nephites, that they might destroy them with poison or with drunkenness.

And they were thus cautious that no poison should be administered among them; for if their wine would poison a
Lamanite it would also poison a Nephite; and thus they did try all their liquors.

[Limnor]

I can see the First Vision being Alvin's experience, but I don't know why he couldn't have simply had a vision as many other people were at the time. Why do you think he had to merge three regular people he allegedly knew into a vision from God? I really like your idea about Ether's vision of the Lord being Alvin's First Vision.

I don’t know if each of those people were present for the vision, or if they even had to be there at all, but I do think the “blessings” of the stones came from a real person, and perhaps all three of those named.

I think you can trace the clues through the whole Book of Mormon.

It’s a running struggle between authority, righteousness, and power. Every prophet and ruler is caught in that tension: who has the right to speak for God, how that authority should be lived, and what happens when it turns into control.

The book isn’t just theology; it’s a collection of competing claims and moral choices, showing how quickly belief in a divine calling can become political power, and how integrity and sincerity (at least feigned, if not real) can restore that power once lost.

I arrived at the conclusion while learning from the competing origin theories: 1) D Michael Quinn and the Magic-World View; 2) The Spalding/Rigdon Theory and competing Christian views explained by Vogel; and 3) Freemasonry as described by Ed Goble.

There are other sources, including Fawn Brodie; the three listed serve as examples.

I thought there could be a “Unified Theory,” and found it within the pages of the book.

In Ether, the moment when the Lord touches the stones is a fusion of three worlds.

1. The stones recall the folk-magic tradition of the early 1820s - represented by Luman Walter’s.
2. The finger of the Lord Jesus Christ piercing the veil evokes Christian redemption - Rigdon and revivals in the area.
3. And the veil itself mirrors Masonic imagery, the boundary between the initiate and the hidden light, between knowledge and secrecy - Hyrum Smith, and while not as clearly attested, Joseph Smith Sr is sometimes listed as a Freemason.

The esoteric seam (Ether 1–3) captures the older seer-stone and folk-magic world in which Alvin Smith lived.

The Christian seam (Ether 2, 4, 12) overlays this with Sidney Rigdon-style restoration theology, transferring Alvin’s revelation into faith in Christ.

The final Masonic seam (Ether 8–15) warns against secret oaths and corrupted brotherhoods, echoing Joseph Smith Jr.’s later struggle to reconcile revelation with ritual order.

I think Alvin’s vision may have grown from a genuine desire to help his indebted family and secure their future; his “translation” was as practical as it was spiritual.

I see Joseph as having usurped Alvin and Oliver Cowdery’s gifts, Rigdon’s theological ambitions, and even his father’s dreams, to gain power and authority for himself.

Ether 8 7 And now Jared became exceedingly sorrowful because of the loss of the kingdom, for he had set his heart upon the kingdom and upon the glory of the world.

[Limnor]

And it came to pass that Amalickiah caused that one of his servants should administer poison by degrees to Lehonti, that he died.

And many times did they attempt to administer of their wine to the Nephites, that they might destroy them with poison or with drunkenness.

And they were thus cautious that no poison should be administered among them; for if their wine would poison a Lamanite it would also poison a Nephite; and thus they did try all their liquors.

You and I probably have very similar views about what happened to Alvin.

I think Alvin was more terrified than the official version lets on.

[Limnor]

Some additional thoughts:

I see the Book of Ether as an actual event in 1823 in which Sidney Rigdon handed Alvin Smith a small manuscript or “book” that Alvin was expected to copy or translate. In this I see the core Spalding document as abridged by Rigdon.

Much has been said about the “Manuscript Found” not resembling the final product, but I propose the document went through at least two abridgments which would render it very different than the original.

There do appear to be remnants here:

Within this cavity I found an earthen Box with a cover which shut it perfectly tite. The Box was two feet in length one & half in breadth & one & three inches in diameter. My mind filled with awful sensations which crowded fast upon me would hardly permit my hands to remove this venerable deposit, but curiosity soon gained the assendancy & the box was taken & raised to open it. When I had removed the Cover I found that it contained twenty-eight rolls of parchment -- & -- that when - - - appeared to be manuscrips written in eligant hand with Roman letters & in the Latin Language.

Luman Walters, the village mystic, provided the seer stones, and Joseph Smith Sr. embodied both “the Father and the Son.”

In this interpretation, the Lord’s command to the brother of Jared to write and seal up what he saw was a commission to Alvin: transcribe and preserve a record that would later be transformed into Rigdon’s Joseph’s book.

[Shulem]

I think Alvin was more terrified than the official version lets on.

When it comes to putrid-Mormonism, then or now, a faith promoting version to support a narrative of spiritual greatness is what's told. Lies, failures, and deceit are covered up -- an example of which are apologetic excuses for the canonical/comical Explanations of Facsimile No. 3. Mormons today, such as MG-Liar, will twist, turn, and deceive for what they know is not true. And thank goodness, MG has me on ignore, so I'm free to speak about him without him knowing about it. It gives me a certain edge which I will take advantage of.

Bottom line: Alvin knew he was dying and that Jesus's so-called promise that "if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them" was not going to be manifest no matter what the Smith family did and he would not "recover."

So much for Smith-family faith! Bah!

[huckelberry]

I can see the First Vision being Alvin's experience, but I don't know why he couldn't have simply had a vision as many other people were at the time. Why do you think he had to merge three regular people he allegedly knew into a vision from God? I really like your idea about Ether's vision of the Lord being Alvin's First Vision.

I don’t know if each of those people were present for the vision, or if they even had to be there at all, but I do think the “blessings” of the stones came from a real person, and perhaps all three of those named.

I think you can trace the clues through the whole Book of Mormon.

It’s a running struggle between authority, righteousness, and power. Every prophet and ruler is caught in that tension: who has the right to speak for God, how that authority should be lived, and what happens when it turns into control.

The book isn’t just theology; it’s a collection of competing claims and moral choices, showing how quickly belief in a divine calling can become political power, and how integrity and sincerity (at least feigned, if not real) can restore that power once lost.

I arrived at the conclusion while learning from the competing origin theories: 1) D Michael Quinn and the Magic-World View; 2) The Spalding/Rigdon Theory and competing Christian views explained by Vogel; and 3) Freemasonry as described by Ed Goble.

There are other sources, including Fawn Brodie; the three listed serve as examples.

I thought there could be a “Unified Theory,” and found it within the pages of the book.

In Ether, the moment when the Lord touches the stones is a fusion of three worlds.

1. The stones recall the folk-magic tradition of the early 1820s - represented by Luman Walter’s.
2. The finger of the Lord Jesus Christ piercing the veil evokes Christian redemption - Rigdon and revivals in the area.
3. And the veil itself mirrors Masonic imagery, the boundary between the initiate and the hidden light, between knowledge and secrecy - Hyrum Smith, and while not as clearly attested, Joseph Smith Sr is sometimes listed as a Freemason.

The esoteric seam (Ether 1–3) captures the older seer-stone and folk-magic world in which Alvin Smith lived.

The Christian seam (Ether 2, 4, 12) overlays this with Sidney Rigdon-style restoration theology, transferring Alvin’s revelation into faith in Christ.

The final Masonic seam (Ether 8–15) warns against secret oaths and corrupted brotherhoods, echoing Joseph Smith Jr.’s later struggle to reconcile revelation with ritual order.

I think Alvin’s vision may have grown from a genuine desire to help his indebted family and secure their future; his “translation” was as practical as it was spiritual.

I see Joseph as having usurped Alvin and Oliver Cowdery’s gifts, Rigdon’s theological ambitions, and even his father’s dreams, to gain power and authority for himself.

Ether 8 7 And now Jared became exceedingly sorrowful because of the loss of the kingdom, for he had set his heart upon the kingdom and upon the glory of the world.

Limnor, I am not much inclined to accept your reductive estimate of Joseph's intentions. I can see what you state as there but I incline to see him as having commitment to a message he believed. I think that explains the shift in theology of King Follet. I think you list of influences is strong explanation. It clarifies what is to be found in the Book of Mormon.
For three figures in the first vision, to imagine three people in some trick is close to absurd. To see three people influencing how Joseph interpreted his experience I think is quite plausible.

[Limnor]

That’s fair Huck.

To be clear, I’m not saying it was Joseph’s vision - I’m saying Joseph borrowed from his brother’s vision and made it his own

The “three-in-one” explanation has a certain symmetry to it, though, in a borrowing from Trinitarian thought. I kind of like it.

The first “First Presidency,” so to speak.

And you are right, I do not ascribe much in the way of good will towards Joseph’s intentions. But I think the historical record bears that out.

If there is such a thing as a “pious fraud,” I’d put Rigdon in that category. And maybe Alvin.

Lastly, the King Follett discourse does reflect Joseph’s ambition, yes. To be god.