Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

[I Have Questions]

I won't claim that I have looked at every other bubble exhaustively. But I have looked wide and far in some depth.

Really? How interesting! What non Christian religion have you looked at the deepest and how did you do it?

[Marcus]

Oh, by the way, you mentioned hubris. I don't think so. If anything, I find the breadth and depth of humanity and their ways to be fascinating and in many ways enlightening. Even a bit of 'holy envy' now and then.

Unbelievable. This in no way reflects the manner in which mentalgymnast regularly and constantly disparages people here who may believe differently than he does. I can only assume that, once again, he has turned to AI-generated prose to attempt to mask his bigotry with an artificial veneer of very ugly pseudo-politeness.

Mormons don't have a corner on the market for goodness and uprightness by any means.

Equally unbelievable that mg sincerely wrote this. His entire mission here has been to insist that he, through Mormonism, does exactly "have a corner on the market for goodness and uprightness." And he regularly states this with a meanness and bigotry that takes one's breath away.

On the other hand, I don't necessarily appreciate what I see as a form of religious racism, which includes stereotyping, that I see from some critics.

Ah. Now we're back to mg's true self. Like when he so offensively co-opted the term 'spiritual autism' to try to express his feelings of Mormon superiority, he now has added the bigotry of 'religious racism' to his disdainful mix.

Hubris, indeed. His recent AI-generated fakery only emphasizes mentalgymnast's dishonesty in his posts. And especially, his misuse of the concept of "racism" to try to imply, once again, he is the one being victimized is thoroughly despicable.

[Shulem]

On the other hand, I don't necessarily appreciate what I see as a form of religious racism, which includes stereotyping, that I see from some critics.

Ah. Now we're back to mg's true self. Like when he so offensively co-opted the term 'spiritual autism' to try to express his feelings of Mormon superiority, he now has added the bigotry of 'religious racism' to his disdainful mix.

Hubris, indeed. His recent AI-generated fakery only emphasizes mentalgymnast's dishonesty in his posts. And especially, his misuse of the concept of "racism" to try to imply, once again, he is the one being victimized is thoroughly despicable.

MG is a despicable character to say the least -- a liar and a sham. Everyone knows the Mormons are guilty of religious racism and racist elitism to the highest levels. How dare MG accuse us of religious racism! How dare him! Shut your Goddamn mouth, MG! Turn your other cheek so that it may be thoroughly slapped -- you hypocrite, liar!

SLAP!

MormonThink: Blacks and the Priesthood

[Gadianton]

You seem to be concerned as to why I find Mormonism as the baby in the bathwater. It's not because I have determined that others don't have something beautiful, but because the theology of the LDS faith seems to challenge and inspire me in ways that I believe are qualitatively different.

Maybe you're missing the point. You can't understand the signal without understanding the noise. You can't say LDS is qualitatively different from the bubbles or the background noise without understanding the qualities of the bubbles. You don't know Mormonism is qualitatively different from anything because you've never experienced anything else. Nobody said you have to experience every bubble (although technically you do in order to have the certainty of their faith Mormons claim) but a reasonable sample of bubbles. You have to understand the noise to appreciate the signal.

I have a high confidence level that I believe I've found the baby and not just another bubble.

We can see that. But faith as exuberant as yours is generally expressed by the least experienced people. You were born Mormon, you've lived your whole life in Utah. You literally know nothing else but Mormon culture. Great, you read a couple of books about other religions. Or have you even done that? I'm not so sure. You've read books by Mormon intellectuals who at least on the surface seem open to other ideas. But you've spent nowhere near the time with the Koran that you expect others to spend with the Book of Mormon. Guaranteed.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I won't claim that I have looked at every other bubble exhaustively. But I have looked wide and far in some depth.

Really? How interesting! What non Christian religion have you looked at the deepest and how did you do it?

That’s the two-thousandth time I’ve seen that question asked of the bot. Best not waste your time typing it out again.

- Doc

[MG 2.0]

You seem to be concerned as to why I find Mormonism as the baby in the bathwater. It's not because I have determined that others don't have something beautiful, but because the theology of the LDS faith seems to challenge and inspire me in ways that I believe are qualitatively different.

Maybe you're missing the point. You can't understand the signal without understanding the noise. You can't say LDS is qualitatively different from the bubbles or the background noise without understanding the qualities of the bubbles. You don't know Mormonism is qualitatively different from anything because you've never experienced anything else. Nobody said you have to experience every bubble (although technically you do in order to have the certainty of their faith Mormons claim) but a reasonable sample of bubbles. You have to understand the noise to appreciate the signal.

I have a high confidence level that I believe I've found the baby and not just another bubble.

We can see that. But faith as exuberant as yours is generally expressed by the least experienced people. You were born Mormon, you've lived your whole life in Utah. You literally know nothing else but Mormon culture. Great, you read a couple of books about other religions. Or have you even done that? I'm not so sure. You've read books by Mormon intellectuals who at least on the surface seem open to other ideas. But you've spent nowhere near the time with the Koran that you expect others to spend with the Book of Mormon. Guaranteed.

I have lived in Utah for a long while now. I grew up and went to high school in Southern California. A beach bum of sorts. No, I haven't read the Koran. Years ago I did read Karen Armstrong's book on the Axial Age. It was there that I learned of the connection between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. That's always been an interest of mine. Yes, I've read a number of books and many articles written by "Mormon intellectuals" over the years. Along with Sunstone and Dialogue. Back in the day I was an avid listener of John and Zilpha Larsen and Dehlin in his early days. I've watched many presentations and documentaries on various world cultures and their religions.

But am I an academic from the Ivory Tower? No. That may be my downfall for some here.

I understand that you need to paint a certain caricature of me in order to 'burst the bubble' in regard to my ability to recognize the "baby in the bathwater". Actually, I don't fault you for that. I see it as more or less a 'protective bubble' you and others put around yourself in order to see/think that Mormons are insular and unaware of the world around them. Net result, your worldview of no God has a bit more 'oomph' to it. All babies are bubbles.

I would encourage those that read this message board to do your own study and inquiries into the history and teachings of the LDS church. Make your own decisions. Believers and critics are going to have different ways of approaching everything having to do with the CofJCofLDS and the criteria used to make judgement calls.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

I had a work colleague years ago who was Ba’hai.

His list of readings for me to understand the Ba’hai faith included:

The Báb
- Persian Bayán
- Arabic Bayán
- Selections from the Writings of the Báb
- The Seven Proofs (Dalá’il-i-Sab‘ih)
- Asmá’ (Commentary on the Súrah of Joseph)

Bahá’u’lláh
- Kitáb-i-Aqdas (The Most Holy Book)
- Kitab-i-Íqán (The Book of Certitude)
- The Hidden Words
- The Seven Valleys
- The Four Valleys
- Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas
- Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
- Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

‘Abdu’l-Bahá
- Some Answered Questions
- The Secret of Divine Civilization
- Tablets of the Divine Plan
- Paris Talks
- Promulgation of Universal Peace
- Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Shoghi Effendi
- God Passes By
- The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh
- The Advent of Divine Justice
- Citadel of Faith
- Messages to America

Universal House of Justice
- Messages from the Universal House of Justice (various compilations)

I never finished them. They were very dense and I eventually gave up.

But, in keeping with the logic presented, everyone should read every scrap before determining if Bahá’u’lláh was a prophet.

[MG 2.0]

I had a work colleague years ago who was Ba’hai.

His list of readings for me to understand the Ba’hai faith included:

The Báb
- Persian Bayán
- Arabic Bayán
- Selections from the Writings of the Báb
- The Seven Proofs (Dalá’il-i-Sab‘ih)
- Asmá’ (Commentary on the Súrah of Joseph)

Bahá’u’lláh
- Kitáb-i-Aqdas (The Most Holy Book)
- Kitab-i-Íqán (The Book of Certitude)
- The Hidden Words
- The Seven Valleys
- The Four Valleys
- Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas
- Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
- Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

‘Abdu’l-Bahá
- Some Answered Questions
- The Secret of Divine Civilization
- Tablets of the Divine Plan
- Paris Talks
- Promulgation of Universal Peace
- Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Shoghi Effendi
- God Passes By
- The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh
- The Advent of Divine Justice
- Citadel of Faith
- Messages to America

Universal House of Justice
- Messages from the Universal House of Justice (various compilations)

I never finished them. They were very dense and I eventually gave up.

But, in keeping with the logic presented, everyone should read every scrap before determining if Bahá’u’lláh was a prophet.

If we demand total exposure before belief, we paralyze belief itself. If every belief system or form of worship requires full immersion before we can responsibly affirm or reject its truth claims, then conviction becomes a luxury reserved for the impossibly thorough.

Thus, many toss out whatever baby there might be with the bathwater. Sure, it's possible that the CofJCofLDS may be just another bubble among many. For me, I've found what I believe to be True while at the same time acknowledging that others might find something equally compelling. I've said over and over again that I support that. I have no problem with that. There are some posters that believe that this is not the case.

Oh well, what can I say?

The tension we’re all going round and round with...if religious conviction demands exhaustive/complete exposure, then belief becomes a burden too heavy for most to carry. Some are willing to carry that burden and others may not be.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

What feels inconsistent is when the call to “read before you judge” applies only to the Book of Mormon. If that principle is sound, it should apply equally to the Ba’hai faith.

[I Have Questions]

What feels inconsistent is when the call to “read before you judge” applies only to the Book of Mormon. If that principle is sound, it should apply equally to the Ba’hai faith.

Agreed. And every other religion’s canon. Unfortunately MG has not even scratched the surface of other religions teachings and canon before pronouncing them all as “not as true as Mormonism”.