Operational Dynamics of “Reasoned Faith”

[Hound of Heaven]

Reading through the “The idea of a Restoration of Christ’s New Testament “church” was unoriginal” thread, I realized even the basic definition of death is unique in Mormon theology. It sounds like death is defined as “mostly dead

Death doesn't exist in Mormonism.

[Gadianton]

Reading through the “The idea of a Restoration of Christ’s New Testament “church” was unoriginal” thread, I realized even the basic definition of death is unique in Mormon theology. It sounds like death is defined as “mostly dead.”

In historic Christianity, Jesus really died. That’s why resurrection is such a big deal—it’s God reversing something final. Anything less than that, like “he was still conscious somewhere,” is not the same as dead. Seeing this really reinforces the divide between traditional biblical Christianity and Mormonism.

Typically, the Bible refers to death as meaning physical or spiritual—but the understanding is that Jesus literally, physically died. This divide got me thinking about Adam and Eve and other examples.

For example, though Adam and Eve didn’t die physically “on that day,” an animal did, reflecting an initial explanation for a substitutionary sacrificial system, later echoed by the story of Abraham and Isaac, and the temple sacrificial system. Jonah’s prayer from the fish is typically understood as describing utter helplessness in the face of certain death, whether literal or symbolic—I happen to think that Jonah would have had to physically die after three days in the belly of a fish (if it’s a literally story), it just doesn’t seem like anyone could survive that. And a literal reading about Jesus preaching to the dead isn’t necessarily required—that exposition can be read as describing the reach and scope of resurrection, not a timeline of activity while dead.

Did Jesus really die according to Christianity? He did if he doesn't have a spirit counterpart. Thomas Aquinas rejects Dan's version of life after death. But hasn't Christianity been divided on whether or not a spiritual counterpart exists for people? I thought I recall an odd version where Jesus is God, and God is spirit, so Jesus doesn't really die, his physical body is resurrected, and then after the ascending the body is discarded again.

But you're right that Mormons don't believe in death at all. You die more at night when you sleep then when you get hit by a bus and your spirit is freed up. In fact, in Mormonism, You've never not been alive, existing from eternity hence as an intelligence. A basic little you.

[Whiskey]

Reading through the “The idea of a Restoration of Christ’s New Testament “church” was unoriginal” thread, I realized even the basic definition of death is unique in Mormon theology. It sounds like death is defined as “mostly dead

Death doesn't exist in Mormonism.

But Mormon funerals exist. Though, Mormon funerals are as ridiculous as their MLM Headquarter Architecture Chapels and vinyl steeples.

[Hound of Heaven]

But Mormon funerals exist.

Do Mormons continue to exist as God's children after they leave this mortal world and enter the spirit world? If that's the case, why do you think they're dead because their bodies are in a casket on Earth?

[Whiskey]

But Mormon funerals exist.

Do Mormons continue to exist as God's children after they leave this mortal world and enter the spirit world? If that's the case, why do you think they're dead because their bodies are in a casket on Earth?

There is not a conflict. Mormons believe we were never not living and we will always be living. And, they have dumb funerals about not dying and not not living.

[huckelberry]

Reading through the “The idea of a Restoration of Christ’s New Testament “church” was unoriginal” thread, I realized even the basic definition of death is unique in Mormon theology. It sounds like death is defined as “mostly dead.”

In historic Christianity, Jesus really died. That’s why resurrection is such a big deal—it’s God reversing something final. Anything less than that, like “he was still conscious somewhere,” is not the same as dead. Seeing this really reinforces the divide between traditional biblical Christianity and Mormonism.

Typically, the Bible refers to death as meaning physical or spiritual—but the understanding is that Jesus literally, physically died. This divide got me thinking about Adam and Eve and other examples.

For example, though Adam and Eve didn’t die physically “on that day,” an animal did, reflecting an initial explanation for a substitutionary sacrificial system, later echoed by the story of Abraham and Isaac, and the temple sacrificial system. Jonah’s prayer from the fish is typically understood as describing utter helplessness in the face of certain death, whether literal or symbolic—I happen to think that Jonah would have had to physically die after three days in the belly of a fish (if it’s a literally story), it just doesn’t seem like anyone could survive that. And a literal reading about Jesus preaching to the dead isn’t necessarily required—that exposition can be read as describing the reach and scope of resurrection, not a timeline of activity while dead.

I find myself puzzled. Why would you think that Mormons do do not think Jesus really died. Such an observation has never before crossed my mind. If you just mean they think his spirit was active after his body died I would point out that is by far the most common Christian view of death. I realize that there is not a uniform Christian view of the matter. Some groups see waiting for resurrection with no conscious spirit in between. I have not heard this line of thought applied to Jesus but I suppose it could be but to what import?

[huckelberry]

Reading through the “The idea of a Restoration of Christ’s New Testament “church” was unoriginal” thread, I realized even the basic definition of death is unique in Mormon theology. It sounds like death is defined as “mostly dead

Death doesn't exist in Mormonism.

I remember the idea that gaining a body and living here was a big opportunity. It is understood to be a big I crease in the scope of life. In comparison an intelligence by itself is a limited life if alive at all. Sounds a bit like a seed. I have never heard. Mormons claim losing a body a positive.

Parent stiff and cold laid out in the relief society room fits my Idea of death.

[MG 2.0]

Death doesn't exist in Mormonism.

I remember the idea that gaining a body and living here was a big opportunity. It is understood to be a big I crease in the scope of life. In comparison an intelligence by itself is a limited life if alive at all. Sounds a bit like a seed. I have never heard. Mormons claim losing a body a positive.

Parent stiff and cold laid out in the relief society room fits my Idea of death.

Plan of Salvation 101. We die and then at some point are resurrected because Jesus was resurrected. My mother-in-law is going through the natural stages of death. We’ve been with her a lot recently. Again today. She will die. We will have a funeral to celebrate her life. We will find solace/joy in knowing she is in a better place and not suffering.

Are we making much ado about something that is rather straightforward?

We talk about reasoned faith. Isn’t that reasonable? Why would we live and then die with no hope of continued existence? Isn’t THAT unreasonable? I was always taught that the gospel is rather straightforward and simple.

What if it is?

Regards,
MG

[Hound of Heaven]

. We will find solace/joy in knowing she is in a better place

So she won't be dead, correct? How can she dead, but also in a better place?

Don't Mormons believe in a general salvation? Meaning everyone who has ever lived on earth will be reunited with their perfected body?

Watch what I do here and tell me if you agree please.
1. In the pre existence we are composed of an intelligence and spirit.
2. On earth we are body, intelligence and spirit.
3. In the spirit world we are an intelligence and spirit.
4. After the resurrection we are body, intelligence and spirit.

Would you agree with 1-4? If so, then when were we ever "dead"

[Limnor]

Did Jesus really die according to Christianity? He did if he doesn't have a spirit counterpart. Thomas Aquinas rejects Dan's version of life after death. But hasn't Christianity been divided on whether or not a spiritual counterpart exists for people? I thought I recall an odd version where Jesus is God, and God is spirit, so Jesus doesn't really die, his physical body is resurrected, and then after the ascending the body is discarded again.

But you're right that Mormons don't believe in death at all. You die more at night when you sleep then when you get hit by a bus and your spirit is freed up. In fact, in Mormonism, You've never not been alive, existing from eternity hence as an intelligence. A basic little you.

I’m not sure where orthodoxy stands on the “spirit counterpart” language, but the way I read it is Jesus really dies because His body and spirit are separated, even though His spirit continues to exist—not annihilated as the JWs teach. That separation is death. I’m no expert on the matter though. It’s just that if He didn’t really die then it would be more like a pause or something. The meaning of resurrection would be lessened if that were the case, to me anyway.