Merry Christmas!!

[Kishkumen]

Kish, I really enjoyed your post as it was very thought provoking.

I’d agree with the emphasis on myth and culture, especially the point that Christianity works in a Greco-Roman world because it set the stage for a message that world could understand. But I think there is room to explore how Christianity “completes” Jewish foundations as well.

Phrases like “Christ in you” don’t come from Roman thought. Those ideas are drawn from the tabernacle and temple serving as a dwelling place for God on earth. Those ideas could be seen in Roman temples as well, of course, but what Christianity does is complete the symbolism by relocating God’s presence from the tabernacle and temple into a person’s heart. I’m not sure if there is a model for that type of concept in Greek or Roman thought. Maybe stoicism?

So I think you can concede myth or allegory without surrendering truth, and acknowledge Rome without abandoning Jerusalem.

Thank you, Limnor. Excellent observations. I see Christianity as a Hellenized Judaism that was born in the Roman world and shaped thereby. That means the Judaism is still very much at the center of things, but it is a type of Judaism that did not exist in the time of “Moses” or Josiah. It is one that was shaped by Hellenic cultural and political realities. Still, that does not make it less Jewish, in my opinion. I don’t see this as an either-or question. The anti-hellenists, however, do. They believe that Hellenism corrupted the pure Christianity that was but a fulfillment of what was always present in Judaism alone. Remove the Hellenic and Roman influence, so they believe, and you get closer to the authentic core. I believe that this idea is nonsense.

[msnobody]

And Happy Festivus for the rest of us.

Happy Festivus.
We certainly aren’t short on the airing of grievance on the discussion board.

[msnobody]

I am interested in this too. I’m reading/rereading a book that speaks of interpreting the Bible through the cultural lens of the biblical writers, which I’m finding the information to be plausible.

Would you say, Kish, that you interpret the Bible through a historical lens?

Merry Christmas, msnobody! Please send my Christmas greetings to your spouse.

I can read the Bible historically or devotionally. My Christianity is not rooted only in the Bible. It is rooted in all the ideas, teachings, and practices of later times that come out of Christian civilization, broadly speaking. The source of those things could be great writers and thinkers in the tradition. From my favorite theologians to popes, to great fiction writers and inspiring human exemplars—there are countless sources of salutary models and guides. The key criterion for determining what is useful is the degree to which it prompts me to follow the two great commandments.

Return Christmas greeting from Mr. Nobody. I think he’d like to discuss history with you. In fact, I know he would. Who are a few of your favorite theologians and fiction writers?

[MG 2.0]

Are you sure that these three issues are morally and doctrinally equivalent?

They shouldn't even be close to doctrinally equivalent. Helping the poor and ministering to the sick and afflicted was the central part of the ministry of Jesus as it's recorded. That should be the rule that you proudly proclaim is kept 100% of the time by active Mormons everywhere, not thoroughly abstaining from alcohol, which wasn't even something that Jesus himself did, as he drank wine at the wedding of Cana.

By responding the way you did, you demonstrate what most of us know already, that your religiosity is more about superficial in-group markers rather than about loving God and loving your neighbor, the two greatest commandments.

For those that didn't watch the link/video at/in the beginning post of this thread, it is really worth the watch.

Right, let's get back to putting on the veneer of righteousness.

A little on the harsh side today aren't we? My point is that different teachings are treated differently as they are applied in practice. Loving God and loving one's neighbor are the first two great commandments and are not among the ranking of commandments external to those two. I don't see my faith as being about "superficial in-group markers". I don't really appreciate you making judgements about what's really going on inside either myself or others.

Are you qualified to do so?

Not drinking alcohol is more or less a 'community practice' while at the same time currently being part of the worthiness interview in order to attend the temple. Anyone that is intending to be temple worthy will not be inebriated with alcohol at anytime and in any place. If they do, they are willingly disobeying the current interpretive framework of the WofW. So in this instance it is rather black and white. In the instance of serving others or housing the homeless, those are decisions that are essentially in the category of a 'personal matter' in following the Saviour's injunction to 'love thy neighbor as thyself'.

Different folks will see that from different interpretive frameworks as a result of factors/variables unique to them, others, and the situation.

I'm questioning why you are being somewhat snarky and judgmental. Your veneer of civility is wearing thin, me thinks.

I would just as well that this thread had remained within a "Merry Christmas" kind of spirit. As it is, there have been some comments made that I believe to be somewhat confrontational and really didn't need to be. I do appreciate the Christmas wishes expressed by a few people. That's what I was hoping for...folks wishing each other a day of love, peace, and forbearance. Some held true to that spirit.

It has been interesting to read the responses/reactions during this thread. Some rather harsh, judgmental, and unnecessary...in my opinion. Others, a simple, "Merry Christmas!"

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

It has been interesting to read the responses/reactions during this thread.

I do believe that is why u are here; to have fun and play mind games at the expense of whoever is sucker enough to fall for them.

I still think you were drunk during your opening post. You haven't denied it!

It's not like I asked you what you were drinking or how much. I simply asked a yes or no question and you refused to comply because you want to expand your gameplay.

[Gadianton]

If they do, they are willingly disobeying the current interpretive framework of the WofW

I don't disagree, MG, it's not just you, it's your church that has decided alcohol consumption determines a person's worthiness rather than whether they live by the first two commandments of the Law. My condemnation is of the church in general. The fact that the "current interpretive framework" of the WofW and other commandments is the way it is, is the problem.

As far as how I've responded to your thread, I perceived your OP as essentially trolling. Kicking the hornets nest, as it were. I responded by giving you what you wanted, an argument on Christmas. If you felt my comments derailed the thread, you could have reported them rather than respond to them. I would have totally respected it if the mods split off my comments. But I think it gave you some satisfaction that I bit the hook.

As for wishing people Merry Christmas, I do around the neighborhood to maintain appearances. On this board it's a little different because there is a greater level of sincerity. Although I have a cool tree and had a big turkey dinner tonight and spent a bunch of money on people, I don't believe in Christmas. Neither do I believe in Festivus. I think I can wish everyone, including you, happy holidays. Even Whiskey. That can cover whatever holidays you all believe in without me implying I accept the terms of any of these holidays.

[Whiskey]

If they do, they are willingly disobeying the current interpretive framework of the WofW

I don't disagree, MG, it's not just you, it's your church that has decided alcohol consumption determines a person's worthiness rather than whether they live by the first two commandments of the Law. My condemnation is of the church in general. The fact that the "current interpretive framework" of the WofW and other commandments is the way it is, is the problem.

As far as how I've responded to your thread, I perceived your OP as essentially trolling. Kicking the hornets nest, as it were. I responded by giving you what you wanted, an argument on Christmas. If you felt my comments derailed the thread, you could have reported them rather than respond to them. I would have totally respected it if the mods split off my comments. But I think it gave you some satisfaction that I bit the hook.

As for wishing people Merry Christmas, I do around the neighborhood to maintain appearances. On this board it's a little different because there is a greater level of sincerity. Although I have a cool tree and had a big turkey dinner tonight and spent a bunch of money on people, I don't believe in Christmas. Neither do I believe in Festivus. I think I can wish everyone, including you, happy holidays. Even Whiskey. That can cover whatever holidays you all believe in without me implying I accept the terms of any of these holidays.

Especially Whiskey.

Happy Holidays.

[Res Ipsa]

Merry Christmas, all. And thank you Reverend for the fine Christmas Eve sermon.

[huckelberry]

Kish, I really enjoyed your post as it was very thought provoking.

I’d agree with the emphasis on myth and culture, especially the point that Christianity works in a Greco-Roman world because it set the stage for a message that world could understand. But I think there is room to explore how Christianity “completes” Jewish foundations as well.

Phrases like “Christ in you” don’t come from Roman thought. Those ideas are drawn from the tabernacle and temple serving as a dwelling place for God on earth. Those ideas could be seen in Roman temples as well, of course, but what Christianity does is complete the symbolism by relocating God’s presence from the tabernacle and temple into a person’s heart. I’m not sure if there is a model for that type of concept in Greek or Roman thought. Maybe stoicism?

So I think you can concede myth or allegory without surrendering truth, and acknowledge Rome without abandoning Jerusalem.

Thank you, Limnor. Excellent observations. I see Christianity as a Hellenized Judaism that was born in the Roman world and shaped thereby. That means the Judaism is still very much at the center of things, but it is a type of Judaism that did not exist in the time of “Moses” or Josiah. It is one that was shaped by Hellenic cultural and political realities. Still, that does not make it less Jewish, in my opinion. I don’t see this as an either-or question. The anti-hellenists, however, do. They believe that Hellenism corrupted the pure Christianity that was but a fulfillment of what was always present in Judaism alone. Remove the Hellenic and Roman influence, so they believe, and you get closer to the authentic core. I believe that this idea is nonsense.

Kiskumen, I am curious as to what antihellenists you are thinking of. What comes to my mind is Mormon theories of apostasy. I do not think Mormons need to be wedded to that theory. Past grasping for political power might be a better theory.

I think people might want to look behind Roman influence for different views which might offer a clarification sometimes but that would not require a program of eliminating hellenistic ideas.

[I Have Questions]

I would just as well that this thread had remained within a "Merry Christmas" kind of spirit. As it is, there have been some comments made that I believe to be somewhat confrontational and really didn't need to be.

No. You started the thread to be confrontational. Your wording in the OP is splattered with supercilious passive aggressive snark. You know this, because you meant it that way. You’ve sullied Christ’s name with it. Here’s how it would have been, had your intent been less nefarious:
Merry Christmas to one and all. Wishing you and yours a happy and peaceful time. Below is a link to a Church nativity video which I have enjoyed, you may enjoy it too. <insert link>

You’ve taken the celebration of Christ’s birth and used it for cheap trolling.