Merry Christmas!!

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
User avatar
Physics Guy
God
Posts: 2306
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:40 am
Location: on the battlefield of life

Re: Merry Christmas!!

Post by Physics Guy »

In Matthew 2:9, the author of Matthew wrote:After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was.
This verse has never made sense. It seems to describe a star behaving as a flying light like a UFO that can hover over an identifiable spot on the ground.

It shouldn’t take any modern astrophysics to know that this wouldn’t work with any normal star. An ancient writer might suppose that a special star could move separately from the others, standing still in the sky while all the others moved past, but ancient people who lived under starry skies without city lights should only have known better than modern people that you can’t pick out a single house as lying directly under a star. They’re too far away. The same star will appear straight overhead from everywhere within many miles.

So it seems to me that this writer must either never have looked much at stars, or else have assumed that stars were all just little lights in the sky and so a special one might fly much lower. As Chap says, though, no such low-flying lights are going to correspond to any astronomical events. So the guidance star of Matthew 2:9 can’t be used to date Jesus’s birth from astronomy even if it somehow did happen.

One might decide that Matthew garbled the Bethlehem guidance star, at least getting it wrong when he said it was the same star that had signaled the birth of the king of the Jews, but that ancient astrologers really did travel to Jerusalem in response to an astronomical event that we can try to identify. Or at least that something had happened in the sky at close enough to the right time that Matthew’s story of the Magi would have seemed plausible enough to write more than thirty years later.

It’s still pretty speculative, when the text in Matthew really just doesn’t fit any possible astronomical scenario. If the text is accurate then the “star” was a miraculous flying light that modern astronomers won’t be able to date; if the text has to be read loosely, on the other hand, then it becomes hard to make it pin down anything precisely enough to date the event.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
huckelberry
God
Posts: 4072
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: Merry Christmas!!

Post by huckelberry »

Chap wrote:
Sat Dec 27, 2025 11:12 pm
msnobody wrote:
Sat Dec 27, 2025 10:39 pm
I just heard something online about this, but I don’t have the references to cite as it being around 9/11 3BC.
I think you will find that dates like that are usually based on the attempt to find some record of an unusual astronomical event and fit it into the story of the Magi [astrologers] who Matthew says turned up at some time after Jesus' birth. But the star Matthew describes is clearly intended to be a miraculous one, that somehow led the Magi to Bethlehem, something no real astronomical event could have done.

Believers might do better to note that for Mark and John it is Jesus' three-years ministry that they think it worthwhile to write about; his infancy concerns them not at all.
Chap, I have been puzzled by people looking for an astronomical event. A star would provide no direction to follow.i could imagine a light in the atmosphere moving to direct. Pure storytelling might be a simpler explanation. Those are the two options I see.
User avatar
Limnor
God
Posts: 1745
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:55 am

Re: Merry Christmas!!

Post by Limnor »

Matthew’s star behaves less like an astronomical object, like PG and Chap describe, and more like the visionary objects in the sky we see in Jewish scripture—closer to Ezekiel’s wheel than to something meant to be plotted in the sky. I’m not sure the magi knew what it was either.

I also realize this probably sounds a bit like Mormon apologetics, but I’m not defending a tradition here—just trying to read the text on its own terms.
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 10435
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University
Contact:

Re: Merry Christmas!!

Post by Kishkumen »

Morley wrote:
Sat Dec 27, 2025 4:25 pm
Outstanding! Thank you for this, Rev.
No problem, Morley! My pleasure.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 8272
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Merry Christmas!!

Post by MG 2.0 »

Limnor wrote:
Sat Dec 27, 2025 3:18 am
Ok, so I guess as a Christmas offering to show solidarity (maybe?), MG has graciously placed Paula Fredriksen on the table, like a figgy pudding, and then… wandered off. Sitting at the table, it is unclear whether we’re meant to eat it or wonder if there is a point somewhere in there about the Great Apostasy. This is an example of the type of move that might end up with a poster being labeled a troll, just so it’s clear.

The Fredriksen pudding, when spooned out in delicate bite-sized goodness, reminds us that Christians thought the world was ending any minute. They still thought of themselves as Jews, so long as you don’t include the gentile converts, and were unaware and uninterested in founding a new religion, let alone establishing a long-term authority structure. She also treats us to the delicious news that the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD was a moment that changed everything, and forced all Jewish movements to adapt.

All of which is interesting, but it’s still not very clear what we are supposed to do with this information. Does this support restorationism, refute it, or just offer that the original members didn’t plan on a long-term ecclesiastical structure?
My mother-in-law passed away on Christmas. We spent a lot of time with her in the previous weeks before her death. Skilled nursing, hospital, at home. My wife was in a major auto accident on the I-15 on Dec. 6th. I spend a lot of time taking care of her. Your "wandered off' is a bit disingenuous and judgmental, not knowing the facts of the matter.

I pop in here when I have some free time with nothing else pressing.

I had listened to the Honestly interview at Christmas and thought it interesting...so I posted the link and summary of some of what was talked about. It was simply another addition to the Merry Christmas thread that I knew some here would be interested in.

It does get a bit tiresome to come here and pretty much get hammered for saying almost anything. If I went from the 'believe' column to the 'unbelieve' column I would then be everyone's darling. Since that's not going to happen I'm looked at as the 'enemy within'.

It's not rocket science.

Regards,
MG
Last edited by MG 2.0 on Sun Dec 28, 2025 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Limnor
God
Posts: 1745
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2023 12:55 am

Re: Merry Christmas!!

Post by Limnor »

Let’s review:

Step 1: Place a historian on the table.
Step 2: Do not say why she is there.
Step 3: When asked what she is doing, switch the discussion from “What does this mean?” to “Why are you being unkind?”

Result: no thesis advanced; civility test initiated; troll sequence complete.
Morley
God
Posts: 2647
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:17 pm

Re: Merry Christmas!!

Post by Morley »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Dec 28, 2025 1:02 am
My mother-in-law passed away on Christmas. We spent a lot of time with her in the previous weeks before her death. Skilled nursing, hospital, at home. My wife was in a major auto accident on the I-15 on Dec. 6th. I spend a lot of time taking care of her.
Sorry to read this, MG. I hope things turn out okay. My condolences.
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 2857
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Merry Christmas!!

Post by malkie »

Morley wrote:
Sun Dec 28, 2025 1:54 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Dec 28, 2025 1:02 am
My mother-in-law passed away on Christmas. We spent a lot of time with her in the previous weeks before her death. Skilled nursing, hospital, at home. My wife was in a major auto accident on the I-15 on Dec. 6th. I spend a lot of time taking care of her.
Sorry to read this, MG. I hope things turn out okay. My condolences.
Likewise - my condolences, MG on the death of your mother-in-law. I hope your wife makes a speedy and complete recovery. It's good that you have been able to provide care and comfort to both ladies according to their various needs.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
MG 2.0
God
Posts: 8272
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:45 pm

Re: Merry Christmas!!

Post by MG 2.0 »

malkie wrote:
Sun Dec 28, 2025 2:12 am
Morley wrote:
Sun Dec 28, 2025 1:54 am
Sorry to read this, MG. I hope things turn out okay. My condolences.
Likewise - my condolences, MG on the death of your mother-in-law. I hope your wife makes a speedy and complete recovery. It's good that you have been able to provide care and comfort to both ladies according to their various needs.
It's been an interesting Christmas, that's for sure. We got the inside decorated but didn't make it to the outside. First time.

Regards,
MG
User avatar
Everybody Wang Chung
God
Posts: 3819
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:52 am

Re: Merry Christmas!!

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Dec 28, 2025 2:27 am
malkie wrote:
Sun Dec 28, 2025 2:12 am

Likewise - my condolences, MG on the death of your mother-in-law. I hope your wife makes a speedy and complete recovery. It's good that you have been able to provide care and comfort to both ladies according to their various needs.
It's been an interesting Christmas, that's for sure. We got the inside decorated but didn't make it to the outside. First time.

Regards,
MG
Fibber,

My condolences. It truly is a bittersweet moment. But on the bright side, you’ve now lost your favorite alibi for not obeying the leaders and serving that mission. With your mother-in-law now in Spirit Paradise, the only thing standing between you and your mission is, well... you.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
Post Reply