Could Joseph Smith Make the Plates?

[MG 2.0]

This topic recycles itself every so often. I think that last in depth discussion was back around 2023:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=158043

I found that discussion actually quite interesting. I came into it at around page five. I think that when this topic is brought up it is in recognition that the plates...and of course the angel...are at the root of everything else having to do with the Restoration Narrative.

I suppose this post will be taken out of the line up of posts in this thread simply because some with consider it to be a 'hit and run' or off topic from this thread. It isn't.

I had a number of points I argued on the linked to thread, but I start out by asking the question of why Joseph went to so much trouble to retrieve and the protect the plates. I'm not going to rehash that here...that's why the link to the other rather long thread. I think there were a number of my questions that went unanswered.

The OP on this thread does have a connection with what the 2023 thread dealt with in respect to why would Joseph make the plates and then go through:

1. The whole messy and prolonged retrieval story.
2. The protection and constant shifting/movement of the plates from one place to another.

...and the list goes on. Much of it discussed over in the other thread. Being as my participation is rather limited in who I'm willing to talk to at this point I will let my words stand as they are over on the linked to thread. I will not disturb or interrupt the flow of posts from here on out so as to see whether or not there is anything 'new under the sun' that hasn't already been covered and talked about at length.

Carry on.

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

Bushman jumped the shark here mixing fantasy with religious speculation. As he did so he tarnished my namesake.

Smith can be seen as another rendition of Joseph Campbell’s Hero With a Thousand Faces. Smith’s story is reminiscent of Bilbo Baggins in The Hobbit who stumbles across the ring of power and wonders what to do with it. Later, in The Lord of the Rings, he passes it to Frodo, a brave but simple soul who bears the ring to its final obliteration in the Cracks of Doom. In his reliving of the age-old story, the young Joseph Smith took on far more than he was prepared for when he brought home the gold plates. He was no more ready than Frodo to assume the burden. (p. 169)

[Shulem]

Carry on.

It's inconceivable that gold plates crafted personally by General Mormon would be made of anything but the finest metal available, pure gold. The headplate (Tzitz) worn by the High Priests in biblical times was made of solid pure gold as was the Mercy Seat and other holy temple items of sacred religious significance. Several artifacts were beaten and molded from bricks of solid gold! What about Mormon's plates? Look, if someone had asked Joseph Smith if the plates were made of pure gold he would have affirmed they were and probably by a revelatory statement to that effect. I think everyone just assumed the plates were made of pure gold just as the plates of Laban were made of pure brass.

It's an open and shut case and Vogel has nailed it.

[Shulem]

GOLD that is referenced in Book of Mormon stories (hilts, plates, thrones, etc.) was nothing less than that of "pure gold" which is the same kind of gold Smith claimed when denying the temptation "to get the plates for the purpose of getting rich."

The 1839 historical account given by the former Church Historian John Corrill lends the idea that Joseph Smith informed the saints that the gold plates were indeed made of pure gold. That was the genuine idea concerning the construction of the plates.

They had with them a new revelation, which they said had been translated from certain golden plates that had been deposited in a hill, (anciently called Camorah,) in the township of Manchester, Ontario county, New York. They were deposited about 1400 years since by one Moroni, under the direction of Heaven, with a promise that in the Lord’s own due time, they should be brought forth, for the special benefit of the remnant of his people, the house of Israel, through Joseph, of Egypt, as well as for the salvation of the Gentiles upon this continent.

<snip>

After being warned several times, he went to the spot and found the record engraved on leaves or plates of gold, fastened together by rings passing through one edge of all the leaves, on which they would turn as you opened them. The plates, as near as I can remember, were said to be about six by eight inches square, and very thin. This Book was carefully enclosed in a stone box, provided for that purpose, which Smith broke open. After he obtained the plates, and before he left the place, he began to contemplate the vast riches that he would acquire by their means.

<snip>

This tale, simple as it is, formed a new subject of contemplation for me. As to the preservation of the record, if the plates were pure gold, of course they would remain pure any length of time, and as to the language, it might as well be reformed Egyptian as any other language, if it had to be translated by the power of God.

And there you have it. A former Church Historian who worked very closely with Joseph Smith declared that faithful saints believed the plates were made of "pure gold" and would ever remain pure forever. This particular information could have only been had by the prophet himself.

[Limnor]

This topic recycles itself every so often. I think that last in depth discussion was back around 2023:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=158043

I found that discussion actually quite interesting. I came into it at around page five. I think that when this topic is brought up it is in recognition that the plates...and of course the angel...are at the root of everything else having to do with the Restoration Narrative.

I suppose this post will be taken out of the line up of posts in this thread simply because some with consider it to be a 'hit and run' or off topic from this thread. It isn't.

I had a number of points I argued on the linked to thread, but I start out by asking the question of why Joseph went to so much trouble to retrieve and the protect the plates. I'm not going to rehash that here...that's why the link to the other rather long thread. I think there were a number of my questions that went unanswered.

The OP on this thread does have a connection with what the 2023 thread dealt with in respect to why would Joseph make the plates and then go through:

1. The whole messy and prolonged retrieval story.
2. The protection and constant shifting/movement of the plates from one place to another.

...and the list goes on. Much of it discussed over in the other thread. Being as my participation is rather limited in who I'm willing to talk to at this point I will let my words stand as they are over on the linked to thread. I will not disturb or interrupt the flow of posts from here on out so as to see whether or not there is anything 'new under the sun' that hasn't already been covered and talked about at length.

Carry on.

Regards,
MG

How MG will address prayers for clarification when he becomes a god:

And it came to pass that Joseph Smith Jr Prime, MG Earth, circa 3000 Common Earth Year, inquired of the Lord, saying:
O Lord, thou hast spoken in times past concerning these plates, and the lack of evidence thereof, not to mention the confusing manner in which thou taketh them back again even though thou didn’st leave the Abrahamic papyri. Therefore, or maybe wherefore, thy servant understandeth not and wouldst ask that thou wouldst maketh plain thy words, that I may declare them unto the people.

MG Answereth: Verily, verily, I say unto you, having already declareth these things in a former dispensation, even in the record of 2023, beginning about the fifth page thereof, I shan’t rehearse them a second time. And because ye did not contend with my words in that day, behold, they stand as a testimony against you now. Furthermore, I shall bring to your remembrance that I am ignoring most of you anyway. Therefore, go your ways and continue in your meager lives. Even so. Carry on.

[Shulem]

The Three Witnesses gave their own descriptions of the composition of the plates which I believe were examined while kept under a secured cloth. The witnesses also referred to the sealed portion as a solid block that could not be moved like the plates (leaves) atop the stack. Is it possible the sealed section at the bottom was a block of lead? That certainly would add much weight to the whole effect.

[Shulem]

I came into it at around page five.

Operation MENTAL RETARDS.

Move along. Nothing to see here.

[Morley]

How MG will address prayers for clarification when he becomes a god:

And it came to pass that Joseph Smith Jr Prime, MG Earth, circa 3000 Common Earth Year, inquired of the Lord, saying:
O Lord, thou hast spoken in times past concerning these plates, and the lack of evidence thereof, not to mention the confusing manner in which thou taketh them back again even though thou didn’st leave the Abrahamic papyri. Therefore, or maybe wherefore, thy servant understandeth not and wouldst ask that thou wouldst maketh plain thy words, that I may declare them unto the people.

MG Answereth: Verily, verily, I say unto you, having already declareth these things in a former dispensation, even in the record of 2023, beginning about the fifth page thereof, I shan’t rehearse them a second time. And because ye did not contend with my words in that day, behold, they stand as a testimony against you now. Furthermore, I shall bring to your remembrance that I am ignoring most of you anyway. Therefore, go your ways and continue in your meager lives. Even so. Carry on.

Outstanding.

[Marcus]

How MG will address prayers for clarification when he becomes a god:

And it came to pass that Joseph Smith Jr Prime, MG Earth, circa 3000 Common Earth Year, inquired of the Lord, saying:
O Lord, thou hast spoken in times past concerning these plates, and the lack of evidence thereof, not to mention the confusing manner in which thou taketh them back again even though thou didn’st leave the Abrahamic papyri. Therefore, or maybe wherefore, thy servant understandeth not and wouldst ask that thou wouldst maketh plain thy words, that I may declare them unto the people.

MG Answereth: Verily, verily, I say unto you, having already declareth these things in a former dispensation, even in the record of 2023, beginning about the fifth page thereof, I shan’t rehearse them a second time. And because ye did not contend with my words in that day, behold, they stand as a testimony against you now. Furthermore, I shall bring to your remembrance that I am ignoring most of you anyway. Therefore, go your ways and continue in your meager lives. Even so. Carry on.

Outstanding.

Awesome.

...Therefore, or maybe wherefore...

Has someone been reading Carmack?????

[Shulem]

I need to expand on what may be a shortsighted viewpoint and clarify why I visualize something more intense than what is expressed in Vogel's presentation.

The greenish corner of the plates comes from Josiah Stowell who accidentally saw the corner of the plates sticking out of the cloth covering them. Of course, not just the corner was green.

<snip>

Since we are taking Stowell's description seriously, we would expect tumbaga plates to have been significantly corroded, not just a tiny corner or along the edges.

<snip>

I think the oxidation and corrosion would be more extensive than Smoot's edge of the plates. Stowell's description implies he saw more than the edge of the plates, but rather a corner of the top or bottom plate.

<snip>

Stowell's description that these plates resembled a greenish stone implies a larger surface area and that the green was solid, not patchy.

Josiah Stowell described a really strange account in some ways, but he described having the plates handed to him while covered and a corner of the covering slipping off. And so he just saw a corner. He didn't see a whole like the whole plates, but he said he saw a corner and he described them as having a greenish cast or looking like a stone of greenish cast. And what's compelling to me is if you were making up seeing gold plates, that's probably not how you would describe seeing them, right? And so he's probably authentically describing something he actually saw.

<snip>

But if the copper got exposed on a corner for instance or along an edge, it could have oxidized and it would have had this greenish almost stony looking color.

The point I wish to make is that a CORNER is more significant than what people may think. First of all, this corner was not seen from just a limited two-dimensional view but from a three-dimensional view as the plates were in motion while being transported through the window into Josiah Stowell's personal clutch! That enlarges the area of view quite significantly.

So what is this three-dimensional "corner" and just how large is it? The plates have four (4) corners (A,B,C,D). Josiah Stowell saw one of them and to see one of them is somewhat like seeing all FOUR (4) because each corner represents a portion of the whole. How so? Well, each corner (fourth) is a view of the entire product:



So, in a sense, Josiah Stowell saw the plates and they were GREEN!

PS. I take my hat off to Vogel. He nailed it.