How often "plates" are discussed here.

[Gadianton]

I use mormonese purposefully.

No you don't.

I searched, pondered, and prayed to understand/know whether or not there was a creator God and whether He had/has a plan for ALL His children. I came to believe that He does.

I don't disbelieve you, I think maybe you did do this. I have to trust you with a grain of salt on your personal experiences just as you must do so with mine. I know there are examples like yours, for instance Don Bradly. His disbelief was a matter of public record and then he went through a similar thing and he regained his faith as a matter of public record.

Earlier I pointed at you and said that your views ultimately end in emptiness as it relates to being able to fill your cup with the truth that saves and exalts

No you didn't. prove me wrong and quote yourself telling me that my "views ultimately end in emptiness as it relates to being able to fill your cup with the truth that saves and exalts"

But I also said that for all intents and purposes, day to day, you are most likely a good man, a good son, a good father/husband

Nope, didn't say that. You're doing this whole free-association thing again.

Truthfully, if I felt that you or any other secular humanist had something better to offer than LDS’ism, I’d bite.

I'm not a secular humanist, nor even a humanist, for the record. I had a missionary companion tell me that Joseph Smith said something to the effect of, if he ever found another church with more truth than Mormonism he'd join it in an instance. I assume you're riffing off of that.

That’s why I stated that the poorest and most humble people, temporally or spiritually, are more likely to see the truth (or portion thereof) than the mighty and the learned as I would assume you count yourself as being.

I don't think you're invested in this, especially given that you reject the "poor and humble" conventional beliefs Mormons have such as becoming Gods along with an infinite regress of Gods, opting for Ostler's presumably more sophisticated and learned version influenced by sectarian theology. You seem to forget that in the last few weeks your clashes with me have been entirely over my failure to recognize Ostler's theologically sophisticated God and my insistence on Mormon folklore (as understood by humble and poor Mormons) as representing the true beliefs of Mormons.

I don't count myself as among "the mighty and learned". You're trying to build me up as this arrogant intellectual who makes life overly complicated in order to get yourself off the hook from putting any effort into your posts. If you don't have license to contradict yourself five times in the same post, then expectations of you are way too high and I must be lost in a sea of overly-complicated nonsense.

[Morley]

I use mormonese purposefully. Why?

Ha! You speak only Mormonese because you don't know any other language. You don't try to understand the language of logic, or of academics; you don't have a clue about the language of faith outside of Mormonism; and you make no effort to comprehend even basic philosophical concepts, even when they're explained to you. Your politics are limited to what you've overheard discussed in the corridor of your meetinghouse. You speak Mormonese because it's the only language in which you have any degree of fluency.

But not all. That’s where faith comes in. The life of faith in the LDS Church is not a cakewalk but it is rewarding/challenging/fruitful.

Ha! That's where you're wrong--and you kind of know this. The life of faith in the LDS Church certainly *is* a cakewalk. It requires no thought, no self-reflection, no difficult moral stances, and no sacrifice worth mentioning. Millions engage in it without even considering an alternative. Staying Mormon is the path of least resistance. That's why you're still there.

Truthfully, if I felt that you or any other secular humanist had something better to offer than LDS’ism, I’d bite.

No, you wouldn't. You're too occupied lazily doing your cakewalk.

That’s why I stated that the poorest and most humble people, temporally or spiritually, are more likely to see the truth (or portion thereof) than the mighty and the learned as I would assume you count yourself as being.

Which are you? The poorest, or the most humble? Or maybe you're the best of both worlds--both poor and humble?

[MG 2.0]

Years ago when I first went online and checked out and participated in Mormon-l (one of the first online forums) and the ZLMB I was looking to see what all the hullabaloo was about with the New Mormon History. Then came New Order Mormons and The Cultural Hall. Then all the stuff by Dale Broadhurst. Then Sunstone and FAIR. Yep, the gamut.

This board is another iteration of one corner of the online world where all shades of Mormonism are discussed. It's been going on a long time now. I was there at the beginning. This is nothing new to me.

I mention this because over the years I have come to see that in most cases with most things the truth of the matter(s) typically lie somewhere between extremes. Critics often go to extremes as to apologists. Critics bash apologists and apologists bash critics. It's really a never ending story/battle.

This board has been a different experience than the others I've participated in. I won't go into all that. I've done that elsewhere. This place is actually unpleasant whereas the other venues generally weren't. I'm really no different now than I was during years past. Unfortunately, along with other parts of society, folks have become much more polarized and siloed.

Echo chambers where only certain POV's are tolerated and others are looked at as being anathema. No real discussion, just one sided and strict conformity to the 'board truth'. Strict guardrails and nanny cops to enforce conformity to the party line.

Some active members have come and gone. They've left because of the toxicity and general Uber authoritarian power structure that silently squelches any dissent.

I am now being accused of speaking "mormonese". God forbid that I would speak my own truth. It's not fun anymore

In the past on other venues it actually was kind of fun. People may have had a conniption fit about one thing or another but then they made up and got along. No grudges. No vendettas.

I can see that this is probably not the place for me anymore. I think most folks here would like a bit more harmony without anyone rocking the boat. In a way, it is unfair for me to continue here and interrupt or rock the status quo.

Shades created a board originally to give voice to various opinions/views with hopes of a cordiality that might develop. Apparently with my entry to the board this goal has been sidetracked and some might say 'blown up'.

I will leave. My hope, however, is that at some point the board can revert to the purpose that it was originally intended. On the other hand, it may well be that the board has reached a point in which most participants are happy with the general atmosphere of bashing the church, bashing DCP and other apologists, and creating a safe environment in which this can take place.

I guess the trajectory of this board remains to be seen. I don't hold up much hope, however, for it to be much more than another strongly partisan board where certain views are welcome and others aren't.

And where vendettas are destroying basic civility and goodness.

I've come and gone before with hopes of being able to move on from past hurts and/or grudges. All I get is stuff like, "Why aren't you and you wife on a mission?", ad hominem, and accusations of being a troll.

I was hoping it might end. No such luck.

Best wishes to everyone. Philo, drumdude, canpakes, huckleberry, and a few others, including some that have moved on, thank you for your general civility and friendliness. I've appreciated that.

Shades, sorry that I was somewhat contrary and rebellious against your A.I. rules. I still don't agree, but you're the boss.

I enjoyed meeting you one time and I think you're a pretty good guy.

See ya' on the other side!

Regards,
MG

P.S. maybe I can get through my pile of books faster now. This has been REALLY time consuming.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

By my count, this is Fibber’s seventh "final" farewell he's posted over the years. Fibber has the quitting skills of a boomerang. See you on Monday, Fibber.

[Limnor]

By my count, this is Fibber’s seventh "final" farewell he's posted over the years. Fibber has the quitting skills of a boomerang. See you on Monday, Fibber.

Is this the part where he wants people to ask him to stay?

[malkie]

By my count, this is Fibber’s seventh "final" farewell he's posted over the years. Fibber has the quitting skills of a boomerang. See you on Monday, Fibber.

Is this the part where he wants people to ask him to stay?

I would, if he would agree to answer all of the questions that he has avoided responding to in a meaningful way. His "unrequited" count is possibly too high for that to work.

Oh, well - we managed during his breaks, and no doubt we'll manage if he doesn't return.

Perhaps it's fitting that, once again, a thread is derailed for MG's pity party. At least that would be a thing of the past, right?

[Gadianton]

I am now being accused of speaking "mormonese". God forbid that I would speak my own truth.

God forbid you put the slightest effort into saying something comprehensible. "Mormonese" isn't one's own truth, it's a cultural production. Do you have your own truth? That's a serious question. Record a thousand travel-log style testimonies and feed it through ChatGPT1.0 and that would be your typical posting style. On occasion you do rise above it, so I don't feel bad calling you out for it, since I believe you're capable of better.

On my mission, we had a "missionary guide" and that guide was all about teaching manipulative sales tactics. How effective it really was I'd question, however, it specifically understood the problem with Mormonese. The guide was filled with examples of missionaries asking investigators questions or responding to questions from investigators, and it frequently had humorous "Mormonese" examples -- missionaries saying directionless, halfway comprehensible things that other Mormons will recognize as familiar but leave investigators stumped. In other words, the Church recognized that to be an effective missionary, a person must learn to communicate with non-Mormons. They must word things in a way that non-Mormons can comprehend.

Shades created a board originally to give voice to various opinions/views with hopes of a cordiality that might develop.

That's not true. Shades created a board that encouraged board wars and allowed for insults while also allowing all religious and political views without fear of crackdown by the moderators. In fact, the original version had a little quote icon of two participants calling each other "liar" and "heathen" or something like that. You've been free as a bird to say whatever you want without moderator persecution.

I've come and gone before with hopes of being able to move on from past hurts and/or grudges

While I think in general you do like to get along with people, you also like to get even for slights against your leaders and faith. After the brief ban for your AI transgressions (which I personally can go either way on), you responded to about 10 threads with little quips and pokes.

[Marcus]

By my count, this is Fibber’s seventh "final" farewell he's posted over the years. Fibber has the quitting skills of a boomerang. See you on Monday, Fibber.

It's interesting he's crying over things like questions about Senior missions. Maybe he's blocked it out of his mind that he responded to a heartfelt, personal post from Black Moclips about missions with this reprehensible attack on Black Moclips' family:

The move to allow the ladies to go out at 19 just confirmed this.

...My takeaway is that your son apparently would not be ready/willing to serve a mission for more reasons than one.

Regards,
MG

Notice that in addition to egregiously attacking the family member of a poster here, mentalgymnast also didn't use ellipses to indicate he was clipping one tiny sentence out of a long post, thereby completely changing its meaning. He's repeatedly accused others of doing that to him recently, and cried many crocodile tears over how hurt he is by that (imaginary) event. I say imaginary because every single time, what mentalgymnast whines about is his own behavior that he's projecting onto people here.

Mentalgymnast wants to dish it out without any repercussions and then is shocked when people point out his passive aggressive shenanigans.

[Morley]

Is this the part where he wants people to ask him to stay?

I would, if he would agree to answer all of the questions that he has avoided responding to in a meaningful way. His "unrequited" count is possibly too high for that to work.

Oh, well - we managed during his breaks, and no doubt we'll manage if he doesn't return.

Perhaps it's fitting that, once again, a thread is derailed for MG's pity party. At least that would be a thing of the past, right?

I would, too, as most here will painfully remember how I've repeatedly advocated for him in both the past and the near present. That said, I stopped being able do this a little while ago. As you suggest, malkie, it's impossible to connect with someone who doesn't engage or post in good faith. Many others here have tried it repeatedly, only to find that any hand extended in comity or understanding in MG's direction, always ends up getting ignored or bitten. Like you, I'm tired of always needing to bandage my bloody stump.

[Limnor]

On my mission, we had a "missionary guide" and that guide was all about teaching manipulative sales tactics. How effective it really was I'd question, however, it specifically understood the problem with Mormonese. The guide was filled with examples of missionaries asking investigators questions or responding to questions from investigators, and it frequently had humorous "Mormonese" examples -- missionaries saying directionless, halfway comprehensible things that other Mormons will recognize as familiar but leave investigators stumped. In other words, the Church recognized that to be an effective missionary, a person must learn to communicate with non-Mormons. They must word things in a way that non-Mormons can comprehend.

This is interesting. Would you be comfortable sharing some examples? Also did you then, or now, consider the tactics as deceptive?

Ref MG: he can stay or go as he likes. No one is forcing him either way. For my part I am entertained by his presence.