Does Peterson really understand Hitchins’ point?

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huckelberry
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Re: Does Peterson really understand Hitchins’ point?

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Sun May 03, 2026 2:51 am
Christopher Hitchens wrote:HULSEY: Yes, the question is if there is no God, why spend your life and career trying to refute that? Why don’t you just leave it alone and stay home? Fair enough?

HITCHENS: Well it’s not my—it isn’t my whole career, for one thing. It’s become a major preoccupation of my life though in the last eight or nine years, especially since September 11, 2001 to try and help generate an opposition to theocracy and its depredations.

That is now probably my main political preoccupation, to help people in Afghanistan, in Somalia, in Iraq, in Lebanon, in Israel resist those who sincerely want to encompass the destruction of civilization and sincerely believe they have God on their side in wanting to do so.

A thing—maybe I will take a few minutes just to say something that I find repulsive about, especially monotheistic, Messianic religion. With a large part of itself, it quite clearly wants us all to die. It wants this world to come to an end. You can tell the yearning for things to be over. Whenever you read any of its real texts or listen to any of its real, authentic spokesmen, not the sort of pathetic apologists who sometimes masquerade for it, those who talk—

There was a famous spokesmen for this in Virginia until recently, about the rapture say that those of us who have chosen rightly will be gathered to the arms of Jesus, leaving all of the rest of you behind. If we’re in a car, it’s your lookout, that car won’t have a driver anymore. If you’re a pilot, that’s your lookout, that plane will crash. We will be with Jesus and the rest of you can go straight to hell. The eschatological element that is inseparable from Christianity—if you don’t believe that there is to be an apocalypse, there is going to be an end, a separation of the sheep and the goats, a condemnation, a final one, then you’re not really a believer, and their contempt for things of this world shows through all of them. It’s well put in an old rhyme from an English exclusive bretheren sect. It says that, “We are the pure and chosen few and all the rest are damned. There’s room enough in hell for you, we don’t want heaven crammed.”

You can tell it when you see the extreme Muslims talk. They cannot wait, they cannot wait for death and destruction to overtake and overwhelm the world. They can’t wait for, what I would call without ambiguity, a final solution. When you look at the Israeli settlers, paid for often by American tax dollars, deciding that if they can steal enough land from other people and get all the Jews into the promised land and all the non-Jews out of it then finally the Jewish people will be worthy of the return of the Messiah and there are Christians in this country who consider it their job to help this happen so that Armageddon can occur so that the painful business of living as humans and studying civilization and trying to acquire learning and knowledge and health and medicine and to push back—can all be scrapped and the cult of death can take over.

That, to me, is a hideous thing in eschatological terms and end time terms on its own, hateful idea, hateful practice and a hateful theory but very much to be opposed in our daily lives where there are people who sincerely mean it, who want to ruin the good relations that could exist between different peoples, nations, races, countries, tribes, ethnicities, who say—who openly say they love death more than we love life and who are betting that with God on their side, they’re right about that.

So when I say, as the subtitle of my book, that I think religion poisons everything, I’m not just doing what publishers like and coming up with a provocative subtitle, I mean to say it infects us in our most basic integrity. It says we can’t be moral without Big Brother, without a totalitarian permission. It means we can’t be good to one another, it means we can't think without this. We must be afraid, we must also be forced to love someone who we fear, the essence of sado-masochism and the essence of abjection, the essence of the master-slave relationship and that knows that death is coming and can’t wait to bring it on. I say this is evil. And though I do, some nights, stay at home, I enjoy more the nights when I go out and fight against this ultimate wickedness and ultimate stupidity. Thank you.
Leave it to Christopher Hitchens to say in 1,000 words something incredibly more profound than Daniel Peterson has said in 100,000 blog posts.
I find I can have a good deal of sympathy for Hitchens's observation. My thought however is that there are multiple strands of religion and he is looking at a dimension of religion which poisons. I have not read his book so do not know if he attempts to show that what he sees as poison is a necessary part of religion or a distortion created by the human problems our species has.

I imagine religion can be a variety of things including a rejection and antidote to the poison in consideration. I can wonder if I am wrong. The poison has real popularity. It provides emotion thrills. It can comfort the ego.

I think Paul had this poison in mind when he spoke of bondage to the flesh or sin. He hoped his message was one of an antidote but it is clear people like to focus on sin as some other things so they can cling to the poison.
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Re: Does Peterson really understand Hitchins’ point?

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Limnor wrote:
Sun May 03, 2026 3:20 pm
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... ssues.html] For example, I’ve never accused him of antisemitism, religious bigotry, anger management issues, financial corruption, cruelty, viciousness, racism, dishonesty, sadism, callous exploitation of innocent people, misogyny, perpetual smoldering hatred, gluttony, or mercenary hypocrisy. I’ve never portrayed him as an irrational buffoon or as a flat-out liar. (I pass over in silence the fact that The Usual Suspects have accused me of all of those things, and of a good many other negative things besides.)
That’s an impressively thorough list of things he hasn’t said. His version of restraint by saying nothing must be exhausting. Also, “passing over in silence” seems to have an unusually vocal nuance.
:lol:
One must be careful, when extoling one's imaginary non-vices, to not stray toward one's proven vices. (Theft of intellectual property comes to mind...)
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Re: Does Peterson really understand Hitchins’ point?

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Re: Does Peterson really understand Hitchins’ point?

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I Have Questions wrote:
Sun May 03, 2026 1:26 am
I’ve never portrayed him as ... a flat-out liar. (I pass over in silence the fact that The Usual Suspects have accused me of all of those things, and of a good many other negative things besides.)
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and acts like a duck...
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Re: Does Peterson really understand Hitchins’ point?

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Dr Moore wrote:
Tue May 05, 2026 8:19 pm
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and acts like a duck...
It's a tapir?
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Re: Does Peterson really understand Hitchins’ point?

Post by I Have Questions »

By posting cherry picked "advertorials" of religious people doing good things under the banner of their religion, Peterson is making Hitchins point for him - that even the act of charity has been poisoned into becoming self serving marketing for that religion, rather than an altruistic effort to do good simply for the sake of doing good.

Jesus in his sermon on the mount put it this way - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

By constantly advertising their good deeds themselves, Peterson and the Church are robbing the charitable members of their reward from their Father In Heaven. Peterson's Hitchins file is literally "religion poisons everything" in action in real time.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: Does Peterson really understand Hitchins’ point?

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Sun May 03, 2026 2:51 am
Christopher Hitchens wrote:
.........

There was a famous spokesmen for this in Virginia until recently, about the rapture say that those of us who have chosen rightly will be gathered to the arms of Jesus, leaving all of the rest of you behind. If we’re in a car, it’s your lookout, that car won’t have a driver anymore. If you’re a pilot, that’s your lookout, that plane will crash. We will be with Jesus and the rest of you can go straight to hell. The eschatological element that is inseparable from Christianity—if you don’t believe that there is to be an apocalypse, there is going to be an end, a separation of the sheep and the goats, a condemnation, a final one, then you’re not really a believer, and their contempt for things of this world shows through all of them. It’s well put in an old rhyme from an English exclusive bretheren sect. It says that, “We are the pure and chosen few and all the rest are damned. There’s room enough in hell for you, we don’t want heaven crammed.”

You can tell it when you see the extreme Muslims talk. They cannot wait, they cannot wait for death and destruction to overtake and overwhelm the world. They can’t wait for, what I would call without ambiguity, a final solution. When you look at the Israeli settlers, paid for often by American tax dollars, deciding that if they can steal enough land from other people and get all the Jews into the promised land and all the non-Jews out of it then finally the Jewish people will be worthy of the return of the Messiah and there are Christians in this country who consider it their job to help this happen so that Armageddon can occur so that the painful business of living as humans and studying civilization and trying to acquire learning and knowledge and health and medicine and to push back—can all be scrapped and the cult of death can take over.

That, to me, is a hideous thing in eschatological terms and end time terms on its own, hateful idea, hateful practice and a hateful theory but very much to be opposed in our daily lives where there are people who sincerely mean it, who want to ruin the good relations that could exist between different peoples, nations, races, countries, tribes, ethnicities, who say—who openly say they love death more than we love life and who are betting that with God on their side, they’re right about that.
Leave it to Christopher Hitchens to say in 1,000 words something incredibly more profound than Daniel Peterson has said in 100,000 blog posts.
Because I do not agree with Hitchens I will try further his idea. He proposes that if I am not into the world rejecting idea network I am not s true Christian believer. I do not agree.

I think the book Late Great Planet Earth contained a poison injected into American Christianity. Hitchens describes it well. I ask myself why it held such popularity. I note in the 50s, 60s, Christian influence was waining. It was a more social gospel, hoping to help people and improve society, at least in mainline churches. End time fever was part of a change toward more Christian believers. It provided an excitement. It fit with an us against them contest to participate in. Briefly it begat Trump.
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Re: Does Peterson really understand Hitchins’ point?

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huckelberry wrote:
Thu May 07, 2026 4:58 pm
Because I do not agree with Hitchens I will try further his idea.
Perhaps you’ll benefit reading his books in order to understand his views better? There is some nuance to be had beyond the titles.
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Re: Does Peterson really understand Hitchins’ point?

Post by Equality »

Limnor wrote:
Sun May 03, 2026 3:20 pm
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... ssues.html] For example, I’ve never accused him of antisemitism, religious bigotry, anger management issues, financial corruption, cruelty, viciousness, racism, dishonesty, sadism, callous exploitation of innocent people, misogyny, perpetual smoldering hatred, gluttony, or mercenary hypocrisy. I’ve never portrayed him as an irrational buffoon or as a flat-out liar. (I pass over in silence the fact that The Usual Suspects have accused me of all of those things, and of a good many other negative things besides.)
That’s an impressively thorough list of things he hasn’t said. His version of restraint by saying nothing must be exhausting. Also, “passing over in silence” seems to have an unusually vocal nuance.
When I first read the bolded part above, I thought it said "Camus exploitation"...
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Re: Does Peterson really understand Hitchins’ point?

Post by huckelberry »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu May 07, 2026 5:11 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Thu May 07, 2026 4:58 pm
Because I do not agree with Hitchens I will try further his idea.
Perhaps you’ll benefit reading his books in order to understand his views better? There is some nuance to be had beyond the titles.
Perhaps I will. I have read various books supporting atheism or criticizing Christisnity. I think it a good thing to look at different views. I was inviting discussion here however.
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