WHO or WHICH is most important?

[Ego]

Is JOSEPH SMITH more important than Jesus the Christ? Is Jesus the Christ more important than JOSEPH SMITH or are THEY both equal? Why or why not?

Established Mormon doctrine answers this question quite decisively about whose mission is more important leaving no room for debate:

Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement—save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more.
…

vs.

Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.

[x] Jesus
[ ] Smith

I think in practice, despite the obvious choice for who should be more important (Jesus), functionally who is considered more important may be Joseph Smith for some but not necessarily all members of the Church. Especially with the doctrine that modern revelation supersedes older revelation we have Joseph Smith CHANGING THE WORDS OF Jesus through his so called inspired translation of the Bible. At least the Book of Moses as well as Joseph Smith Matthew (words of Jesus) have been canonized from that endeavor. And I cannot tell you how many times I’ve heard Joseph Smith’s reworking of “judge not that ye be not judged” quoted as justification for being judgmental so long as it’s righteous judgment.

[Res Ipsa]

I think in practice, despite the obvious choice for who should be more important (Jesus), functionally who is considered more important may be Joseph Smith for some but not necessarily all members of the Church. Especially with the doctrine that modern revelation supersedes older revelation we have Joseph Smith CHANGING THE WORDS OF Jesus through his so called inspired translation of the Bible. At least the Book of Moses as well as Joseph Smith Matthew (words of Jesus) have been canonized from that endeavor. And I cannot tell you how many times I’ve heard Joseph Smith’s reworking of “judge not that ye be not judged” quoted as justification for being judgmental so long as it’s righteous judgment.

Back when I was a member, I would have been shocked to hear a member say that Smith was more important than Jesus.

Jesus's words were in Aramaic. Every translation changed them.

[Ego]

Back when I was a member, I would have been shocked to hear a member say that Smith was more important than Jesus.

Jesus's words were in Aramaic. Every translation changed them.

Very true!

I think scholars today are much better equipped to examine sources and context to understand as best we are able what he taught and what he meant than Joseph was.

[LittleNipper]

"Logical" but inconsistent with the overwhelming empirical evidence. The same as an explaination to children how all the presents showed up under the Christmas tree. Eventually the kids grow up and out of the "baby story."

The Jesus Christmas story is supposed to supersede the Abrahamic and Mosaic stories of the Old Testament -- out with the Old and in with the New. In other words, brutal ritualistic sacrificing of animals is no longer required to get sins forgiven! Leave the animals alone because Christians have come up with something far more grand in the concept that God himself willingly comes down to put his own head under the chopping block. Christians are very much hung up on the concept of blood and God’s need to spill it.

And with that, presto, a new® religion affords everyone the opportunity to get sins forgiven so God doesn’t have to toss unrepentant (worthless) souls into a lake of fire and brimstone. Needless to say, I do not believe the Christian message or that of animal sacrifice performed by so-called prophets of the Bible. The whole thing is repulsive to me -- especially the part of the man Jesus being the final sacrifice. I think the whole concept is evil.

The world does not need the Christian religion anymore. It has run its course and more and more people are waking up and walking away from the charade.

Jesus is not coming back, not now and not ever. I can assure you that!

1 Peter 2:7-8
7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

2 Peter 3:4
They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

1 Corinthians 1:23
23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

[Shulem]

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”

Nobody will argue that Christ is central to the Christian religion (cult) and is the most important aspect of Christian claims which includes the requirement that Jesus be murdered whereby blood is spilt in order for followers to obtain forgiveness of sins. I, however, will argue that such sacrifice is unnecessary and is a concept designed to enslave the human race into being shamed and threatened unless they humbly comply and accept the murder of Jesus as a divine sacrifice that superseded animal sacrifice.

But the whole thing is barbaric. I along with billions of other souls who have lived on this planet for thousands of years reject all forms of blood sacrifice whether animal or human.

No thank you. And I feel quite fine in my decision to reject religion, moreover the Christian one.

[LittleNipper]

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”

Nobody will argue that Christ is central to the Christian religion (cult) and is the most important aspect of Christian claims which includes the requirement that Jesus be murdered whereby blood is spilt in order for followers to obtain forgiveness of sins. I, however, will argue that such sacrifice is unnecessary and is a concept designed to enslave the human race into being shamed and threatened unless they humbly comply and accept the murder of Jesus as a divine sacrifice that superseded animal sacrifice.

But the whole thing is barbaric. I along with billions of other souls who have lived on this planet for thousands of years reject all forms of blood sacrifice whether animal or human.

No thank you. And I feel quite fine in my decision to reject religion, moreover the Christian one.

We presently reside in a world where people are butchered daily. Your beliefs haven't changed a thing nor do they provide a solution with an escape.

[Shulem]

We presently reside in a world where people are butchered daily. Your beliefs haven't changed a thing nor do they provide a solution with an escape.

Alice Cooper sung about how this is a Brutal Planet and it always has been and likely always will be because of the nature and setup in which all things evolve and survive. As stated earlier and in my linked threads, I have little tolerance for religion and none for the need to practice animal or human sacrifice because people think God/gods require it.

I “provide a solution with an escape” from the madness and cruelty of this world and encourage everyone to adopt good principles and values taught in all religions and other establishments in which loving everyone and learning how to forgive and be less greedy is a peaceful way to live. Learning to control the ego (get rid of it) and treat others the way you would like to be treated is the golden ticket/rule. I said earlier that there were many sayings given by Jesus in the New Testament which I find align with teachings given by other wise sages that resonate with me.

But killing animals or murdering someone for a sacrifice is to me an abomination and the worst concept ever devised by religion. To me, it’s sickening.

Sorry. But there is no way I would embrace the murdering of an innocent animal or person to get forgiveness from a God that does not resonate with my values.

[LittleNipper]

We presently reside in a world where people are butchered daily. Your beliefs haven't changed a thing nor do they provide a solution with an escape.

Alice Cooper sung about how this is a Brutal Planet and it always has been and likely always will be because of the nature and setup in which all things evolve and survive. As stated earlier and in my linked threads, I have little tolerance for religion and none for the need to practice animal or human sacrifice because people think God/gods require it.

I “provide a solution with an escape” from the madness and cruelty of this world and encourage everyone to adopt good principles and values taught in all religions and other establishments in which loving everyone and learning how to forgive and be less greedy is a peaceful way to live. Learning to control the ego (get rid of it) and treat others the way you would like to be treated is the golden ticket/rule. I said earlier that there were many sayings given by Jesus in the New Testament which I find align with teachings given by other wise sages that resonate with me.

But killing animals or murdering someone for a sacrifice is to me an abomination and the worst concept ever devised by religion. To me, it’s sickening.

Sorry. But there is no way I would embrace the murdering of an innocent animal or person to get forgiveness from a God that does not resonate with my values.

Christ is GOD and gave HIMSELF as the only permanent sacrifice for everyone willing to accept HIM as their SAVIOR.. Oddly, Alice Cooper whom you mention is now a CHRISTIAN and here is his personal testimony: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqkzpZYLwTs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mvDaHu3fjo

[Shulem]

Christ is GOD and gave HIMSELF as the only permanent sacrifice for everyone willing to accept HIM as their SAVIOR.

I understand how this is important to you and you have every right to pursue every happiness in your religious beliefs. Thank God we live in a world where people are allowed to practice religion, or not practice any religion, according to their own conscience. Humanity has come a long way.

[LittleNipper]

Christ is GOD and gave HIMSELF as the only permanent sacrifice for everyone willing to accept HIM as their SAVIOR.

I understand how this is important to you and you have every right to pursue every happiness in your religious beliefs. Thank God we live in a world where people are allowed to practice religion, or not practice any religion, according to their own conscience. Humanity has come a long way.

You're so right. People can even vote for Trump and no one will say a word.