WHO or WHICH is most important?

[Shulem]

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4: The Apostle Paul speaks of the "man of lawlessness" who will oppose God and "sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."Revelation 11:1-2: The Apostle John is told to measure the temple of God and the altar, suggesting a physical structure will exist during the first half of the seven-year tribulation period.

And that has been covered in this thread insomuch as the AntiChrist was said to exist in the days of the apostles (first century) to oppose the Christian church and destroy the temple, “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” (Matt 24:21) The so-called AntiChrist who sets himself up in God’s temple in Jerusalem must refer to a temple that was already built! Temple construction, ordinances, and sacred rites in God’s temple couldn’t be performed under auspices of wicked Jews who reject Christ. Modern Christians come up with all kinds of ideas in which to defend failed prophecies. They twist, distort, and pervert biblical doctrine in effort to defend false prophecies. How ironic.

[Limnor]

As far as Jesus was concerned, there was one temple, the one he personally attended and there was one heavenly throne, the one his Father sat upon:

Yes, Jesus was speaking about the Temple in Jerusalem, but John also says Jesus Himself is the Temple. So Temple language is presented as having more than one meaning, which I think is in both a spiritual and physical sense. That’s part of why I think prophecy may have dual meaning in fulfillment.

There are other examples, like a historical, physical Exodus is presented, but the spiritual meaning is to be led out of bondage to sin and death, even to be led out from under the law for righteousness. And there was one historical “abomination of desolation” in the time of Antiochus, yet it is referred to again as having a future fulfillment.

[Limnor]

It seems to me the whole purpose of the clouds was to serve as a stage in which to stand on so EVERYONE down below could see him in full glory.

Right?

Right - I see that as having dual fulfillment. Once in 70Ad and once at the end of everything.

From Josephus:

Chapter 5.3: Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable; were it not related by those that saw it; and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals. For, before sun setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost; as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple,as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said, that in the first place they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise: and after that they heard a sound, as of a multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.”

Chapter 6.1: And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple, and set them over-against its eastern gate. And there did they offer sacrifices to them: and there did they make Titus Imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy.

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-6.html

Tacitus records a similar description.

I don’t take this as “proof” a return of Jesus “in the clouds,” but it’s certainly consistent with the kind of judgment imagery Jesus used and with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70.

This is one reason I’m interested in a telescoping view. It explains how 70AD could be a genuine historical fulfillment of Jesus’ judgment on Jerusalem while still leaving room for a future, universal return of Christ.

[Shulem]

Yes, Jesus was speaking about the Temple in Jerusalem, but John also says Jesus Himself is the Temple. So Temple language is presented as having more than one meaning, which I think is in both a spiritual and physical sense. That’s part of why I think prophecy may have dual meaning in fulfillment.

And, the Church itself was likened to a temple, In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord.

I hope you are not too disappointed that Christ is not coming in your lifetime. I have to think there are a millions of Christians throughout the past 2,000 years that were sorely disappointed. It will be more of the same for centuries to come. It is a myth and the Christian church depends on it.

[Limnor]

Yes, Jesus was speaking about the Temple in Jerusalem, but John also says Jesus Himself is the Temple. So Temple language is presented as having more than one meaning, which I think is in both a spiritual and physical sense. That’s part of why I think prophecy may have dual meaning in fulfillment.

And, the Church itself was likened to a temple, In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord.

I hope you are not too disappointed that Christ is not coming in your lifetime. I have to think there are a millions of Christians throughout the past 2,000 years that were sorely disappointed. It will be more of the same for centuries to come. It is a myth and the Christian church depends on it.

Yes, exactly, the body of Christ. I’m not that worried about it happening in my lifetime.

[bill4long]

Daniel 9:24-27: The prophecy outlines "seventy weeks" and mentions an anointed one being cut off. Implying the reinstatement of sacrifices and offerings, which requires a physical Temple structure at Jerusalem.
Matthew 24:15: Jesus refers to the "abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place". This implies a physical, functioning Temple will exist in the end times where an anti-God figure will desecrate the sanctuary.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4: The Apostle Paul speaks of the "man of lawlessness" who will oppose God and "sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."Revelation 11:1-2: The Apostle John is told to measure the temple of God and the altar, suggesting a physical structure will exist during the first half of the seven-year tribulation period.

You show over and over that you don't have a deep handle on the topics in this thread. You're just regurgitating worn out and debunked Christian apologetics. Rabbi Tovia Singer has handily demolished this particular Christian apologetic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSWpSEyh2zU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p57CiVtdHFY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrTTymgETn8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjKLYEo2AMk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjF3fW9mSmY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96RgQLeOS0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0Sq6qvlmeM
And many more

Moreover, while the New Testament writers referred to Daniel 9, where they have Jesus warn about the Abomination that Makes Desolate, what they never do is refer to Daniel 9:24-27 and apply it to Jesus. (They don't cite Daniel 9:24-27 at all for anything.) This is a glaring omission if this is a prophecy about Jesus. When considering the Hebrew of this text, it is patently obvious that it cannot be about Jesus.

by the way, Tovia Singer is a master of the Hebrew Bible, Christian New Testament, and the Patristic Fathers. It is worth watching his videos on this topic and other Christian apologetic topics and giving them serious consideration from the standpoint of a very capable Jewish scholar and debunker of Christian apologetics.

Proverbs 18:17

[Shulem]

That’s part of why I think prophecy may have dual meaning in fulfillment.

But Jesus specifically, in definite terms, wrapped his prophecy into a single generation in which *ALL* the things leading up to his Second Coming would be fulfilled in one generation -- ONE. It leaves no room to add future generations and skip thousands of years into the future. That is not how his prophecy reads, as I quoted earlier. Dualism is not implied or mentioned in the least degree -- rather singularism is the rule in which the time and place is the century in which Christ lived. The fulfillment of all those things were assigned to a single generation in the era in which they lived -- not thousands of years into the future.

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

It comes down to simple math which does not require additional elements: Singular/Onement.

[Limnor]

I agree that “this generation” refers to Jesus’ contemporaries, and I don’t dispute that. Where we differ is over what “all these things” includes and whether biblical prophecy can have more than one horizon of fulfillment.

The Old Testament repeatedly compresses near and distant events into a single prophetic vision. The prophets themselves often didn’t distinguish the time gap between fulfillments. So I don’t think dual or telescoped fulfillment has to be explicitly announced in the text in order to exist; it is something observed elsewhere in the Bible.

The question I have is not what “generation” means, but whether Jesus is speaking of one uninterrupted timeline or answering two related questions at once (the destruction of the Temple and the end of the age).

Another consideration is Matthew 24:14:

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

Paul later speaks to the gospel being spread to the world, and the Greek indicates he meant the known civilization—Rome—whereas we could still expect to see a fulfillment of the message being spread to “all nations” before the end comes.

[Shulem]

I agree that “this generation” refers to Jesus’ contemporaries, and I don’t dispute that. Where we differ is over what “all these things” includes and whether biblical prophecy can have more than one horizon of fulfillment.

But the prophecy is specific and point blank as explained in my earlier post. There is one (1), a singular horizon, in which *all* fulfillment was to occur. The destruction of the temple and the end of the age in which Christ would return was suppose to happen just like the sun rising and setting on a horizon -- in a single generation.

For example:

I assure you and most solemnly say to you, [the judgment for] all these things [these vile and murderous deeds] will come on this generation.

Yes! I tell you that all this will fall on this generation!

I can promise that you people living today will be punished for all these things!

Believe me when I say that all these things will happen to you people who are living now.

Yes, I tell you this: God will punish the people who are alive today for all those murders.

I tell you the truth, all of these things will happen to you people who are living now

I can guarantee this truth: The people living now will be held accountable for all these things.

I tell you indeed: the punishment for all these murders will fall on the people of this day!

I tell you the truth. All of these things will happen to you people who are living now.

I tell all of you with certainty, all these things will happen to those living today.

[Shulem]

The Old Testament repeatedly compresses near and distant events into a single prophetic vision. The prophets themselves often didn’t distinguish the time gap between fulfillments. So I don’t think dual or telescoped fulfillment has to be explicitly announced in the text in order to exist; it is something observed elsewhere in the Bible.

The Old testament prophecies are not relevant. What Jesus said stands on its own merits and is very specific. Mudding the waters using prophecies of the past evolving around other peoples is simply not relevant and changes nothing.

The question I have is not what “generation” means, but whether Jesus is speaking of one uninterrupted timeline or answering two related questions at once (the destruction of the Temple and the end of the age).

The answer is simple: Jesus was speaking of one uninterrupted timeline involving the destruction of the Temple and the end of the age!

Another consideration is Matthew 24:14:

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

Paul later speaks to the gospel being spread to the world, and the Greek indicates he meant the known civilization—Rome—whereas we could still expect to see a fulfillment of the message being spread to “all nations” before the end comes.

Yes, Jesus absolutely implied that one of the things that would occur in *that* generation is the gospel would be preached to all nations. He said what he meant and meant what he said. But what St Paul said or implied comes after the fact and is not relevant to what Jesus actually said. Remember, Paul was born out of due time in which he was not associated with Jesus’s ministry.