Sucking up to the boss…

[MG 2.0]

Wang, you might start by actually responding to some of the posts I've made on this thread with something more substantiative than you've offered up so far.

I might even engage you on that front.

Regards,
MG

*bump

[Marcus]

...It appears that BYU went pretty much in tandem with the other universities once the 1973 decision by the American Psychiatric Association decided to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder from the DSM. There was growing ethical criticism showing poor long term efficacy.

From the mid 1970's on BYU and the other universities that have been mentioned (and I'm sure others) started to wind down this kind of behavioral therapy....

MG is incorrect and misleading with his unsourced AI statement, as usual.

It is well documented that the Brigham Young University “University Standards Office” (today known as the Honor Code Office) forced many male students who were caught “exhibiting homosexual tendencies” to be sent for electroshock and vomit aversion therapies. The practice began in 1959 and ended in the mid-90s.

In recent comments, however, Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said that while he was the president of BYU from 1971 through 1980, no such therapy was happening on the campus.

From article: "Dallin Oaks lies about BYU involvement in electroshock therapy against gay men when he was BYU president"

https://www.qsaltlake.com/news/2021/12/ ... president/

[MG 2.0]

It is well documented that the Brigham Young University “University Standards Office” (today known as the Honor Code Office) forced many male students who were caught “exhibiting homosexual tendencies” to be sent for electroshock and vomit aversion therapies. The practice began in 1959 and ended in the mid-90s.

In recent comments, however, Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said that while he was the president of BYU from 1971 through 1980, no such therapy was happening on the campus.

From article: "Dallin Oaks lies about BYU involvement in electroshock therapy against gay men when he was BYU president"

https://www.qsaltlake.com/news/2021/12/ ... president/

Can you show actual evidence, rather than hearsay that conversion/aversion therapy was practice/used at BYU after it had been discontinued as a practice at other universities in the mid to late 70's?

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

It is well documented that the Brigham Young University “University Standards Office” (today known as the Honor Code Office) forced many male students who were caught “exhibiting homosexual tendencies” to be sent for electroshock and vomit aversion therapies. The practice began in 1959 and ended in the mid-90s.

In recent comments, however, Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said that while he was the president of BYU from 1971 through 1980, no such therapy was happening on the campus.

From article: "Dallin Oaks lies about BYU involvement in electroshock therapy against gay men when he was BYU president"

https://www.qsaltlake.com/news/2021/12/ ... president/

Can you show actual evidence, rather than hearsay that conversion/aversion therapy was practice/used at BYU after it had been discontinued as a practice at other universities in the mid to late 70's?

Regards,
MG

Hearsay is “actual evidence,” otherwise you wouldn’t believe in the claptrap you hold so dear.

[MG 2.0]

Can you show actual evidence, rather than hearsay that conversion/aversion therapy was practice/used at BYU after it had been discontinued as a practice at other universities in the mid to late 70's?

Regards,
MG

Hearsay is “actual evidence,” otherwise you wouldn’t believe in the claptrap you hold so dear.

That's a dig. Simple one liners are dear the heart of some folks here.

Have a good weekend!

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

Backwards engineering MG’s AI prompt:


- I’m trying to defend Dallin Oaks against documented evidence that electroshock aversion therapy occurred at BYU during his presidency.

-Unfortunately, there’s a 1976 BYU dissertation documenting it, and Oaks said it never happened under his administration.

- Please construct a question that sounds like a reasonable request for evidence but subtly shifts the burden of proof to whether every other university had already discontinued the practice.

- Make sure the question doesn’t actually address what Oaks said, but sounds sufficiently scholarly that nobody notices.

- Bonus points for including the word “hearsay” when referring to a doctoral dissertation.

[MG 2.0]

-Unfortunately, there’s a 1976 BYU dissertation documenting it, and Oaks said it never happened under his administration.

Establish how broad the practice was across the university or what Oaks personally knew. Would a university president ordinarily be informed about every graduate-student dissertation? The study took place in a basement. D. Eugene Thorne obviously knew about it as did McBride. How far did the outreach/information from the study go out of the Psychology Department to other areas of the university, including administration?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

[Did] every other university had already discontinued the practice.

I think the information provided shows enough data to surmise, reasonably, that BYU was not alone at this time participating in this clinical practice. And that when the change was made to the DSM, BYU followed suit with other universities in discontinuing the clinical practice that up to a certain point had been accepted science.

I've made that fairly clear for those that want to go back and read what I've already said.

It was a sad time in the history of universities. BYU played part in the mistaken therapy.

I think you would have to show through documentary evidence that Oaks was aware of what exactly was going on. And if he was, as an administrator familiar with the practices of other universities and 'accepted science', it is questionable as to whether he would have interfered anyway.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Backwards engineering MG’s AI prompt:


- I’m trying to defend Dallin Oaks against documented evidence that electroshock aversion therapy occurred at BYU during his presidency.

-Unfortunately, there’s a 1976 BYU dissertation documenting it, and Oaks said it never happened under his administration.

- Please construct a question that sounds like a reasonable request for evidence but subtly shifts the burden of proof to whether every other university had already discontinued the practice.

- Make sure the question doesn’t actually address what Oaks said, but sounds sufficiently scholarly that nobody notices.

- Bonus points for including the word “hearsay” when referring to a doctoral dissertation.

Lol. And extra EXTRA bonus points for equating

BYU's 'electroshock aversion therapy' for homosexuality

with

"behaviorism and aversion conditioning [practiced across] major research universities nationwide,"

and then referring to both together as

"this kind of behavioral therapy."

[MG 2.0]

One more thing.

There is a difference between a student research project supervised by a faculty member, and an official university treatment program administered and/or known about by the President’s Office.

I will hand you the fact that he was President of the university during the time in discussion.

Regards,
MG