The Confusing Incarnation

[Kishkumen]

By-the-way note for Kishkumen relating to an older thread but not completely irrelevant here:

Just this Sunday I heard a Lutheran pastor mention, in a side remark from the pulpit during a sermon, that Yahweh was the pre-incarnate Jesus. I was surprised but I didn't ask him about it afterwards. Anyway this traditional Mormon identification may not be as foreign to mainstream Christianity as I thought, after all.

Yes! Thank you. I knew I wasn’t imagining this! Very interesting. So much of what is unusual about Mormonism can be traced to out-of-the-way Christian ideas, interpretations, or practices from past generations. On the whole Mormonism has its own trajectory, but it is really not one that is divorced from Euro-American Christianity. It is a distinctive brand and definitely outside of the “orthodox” mainstream, but it is not alien to it by any means.

Just look at everything Joseph was taking out of Adam Clarke, for example.

[msnobody]

I've got to agree with Jersey here. I remember once either on this board or on ZLMB someone asking me, "Scripture, is that all you've got?" "Yes, that is all I've got," because God's word does what it says it will do.

Just as I marvel at the self-denial Mormons have about worship of Joseph Smith, I also marvel at the elevation of the Bible to a virtual fourth member of the Godhead, complete with agency. Who is God’s Word? The Bible or Jesus? It not infrequently gets slippery when you listen to or read some Protestant Christians. Here our friend msnobody talks about “God’s word doing what it says it will do” as though it were God, or at least some divine entity.

In other words, this is a kind of Bibliolatry. I understand it comes with the territory, and I am sure I will be told by others that what I say here is inaccurate or offensive. But I think it is rather the case that different Christian groups end up implicitly deifying this or that aspect of their system while not recognizing what they are doing. For LDS people it is priesthood authority. For Protestants it’s the Bible.

God's word is His word whether it is written, spoken or The Word Jesus Christ. Everything in the Bible points to Jesus Christ, The Word, as Messiah, not only in the New Testament, but also the Old Testament.

Most folks would gloss over what Jersey said something to the effect, it is in there [trinity], but one has to read it and study it. I bring this up because:

Ephesians 1:13, it states, "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Heb. 4:12 "for the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edge sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thought and intentions of the heart."

Again, Jersey's comment about reading and studying the book carries weight.

I've got to go, my lunch break is over.

[Jersey Girl]

Tell me why you chose to take my comment out of context without including the comment that I was responding to?

Because I don’t like quotes within quotes.

Apparently you don't like context either. So be it.

[Kishkumen]

Apparently you don't like context either. So be it.

I wasn’t ignoring context. I just had my own approach to the issue.

[Kishkumen]

God's word is His word whether it is written, spoken or The Word Jesus Christ. Everything in the Bible points to Jesus Christ, The Word, as Messiah, not only in the New Testament, but also the Old Testament.

Most folks would gloss over what Jersey said something to the effect, it is in there [trinity], but one has to read it and study it. I bring this up because:

Ephesians 1:13, it states, "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Heb. 4:12 "for the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edge sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thought and intentions of the heart."

Again, Jersey's comment about reading and studying the book carries weight.

I've got to go, my lunch break is over.

Yes, well, all you are doing here to my eyes is quoting scripture as though its meaning were self-evidently in support of your position. I don’t see it that way. This may be why so many of these conversations are doomed to go nowhere. I appreciate the quoting of scripture, but I don’t see the connection between the scripture you quote and your preferred interpretations. I am just left to shrug and say: “OK, I guess that makes sense to you. Good for you.”

[Kishkumen]

I would be forever separated from God. It would mean that God didn't come to take the punishment I deserve for my sin upon Himself, thereby protecting me from His coming judgement on sin. Without the triune God, He would not dwell in me [Holy Spirit] as a guarantee. I'd not be gathered to Him and my people when I die. I would never know what it is like to be free from sin. I would not know the fellowship of believers, which I have more fully realized over the past couple of years. I would get my identity from who the world or even myself tells me I am. I wouldn't know what it is like to yearn for others to know this merciful, loving triune God. Without the triune God, I wouldn't know the love of God. I imagine I would feel an emptiness inside.

Thank you for sharing that. None of it is self-evident to someone on the outside. What is sin to someone who is not Jewish or Christian? Is it even the same thing to Jews and Christians? I often wonder what it actually means within the Bible itself, and in which of its books as opposed to others. And, I don’t mean to be dense, but almost nothing of what you are saying really computes in my mind. I understand that it is meaningful and important to you, and in the end that is the most important thing for you. But the love of God should be knowable without God being Triune. Did God not have love before He was understood to be Triune? Did the Jewish God not love his People? Does He not do so today?

I am not trying to be flip, but I have seen a lot of Christians give Mormons grief over the years, and I don’t like it at all. I think Protestantism is as flawed as Mormonism, but it is the brute power of Protestant ideology in America that has allowed it to bully Mormonism with impunity.

[huckelberry]

To say Protestants reject tradition is a misunderstanding. Protestants have a lot of tradition. There are theological books with some authority. There are lots of books discussing Christian experience and hope as well as books reviewing the interpretation of scripture. There is a rich tradition of hymns reflecting peoples experience and sharing that experience with others. Those things form a living tradition informing and shaping peoples understanding of the faith.

I get it. Really. The corruption and worldly power of the Catholic Church became intolerable and something had to be done. But how do you get the monkey off your back? How do you remain Christian at the same time? Certain choices had to be made. Protestantism has traditions, but Tradition does not play the role it does in Catholicism. At the end of the day, scripture is the real measure of truth. And it is probably better not to be saddled with some of what St. Augustine had to say.

My overall point is that no religion is without its problems and weaknesses. On the other hand, the ones that survive for any sizable chunk of time must have their good points too. LDS people are often at a disadvantage when others come to criticize their faith because they have such a poor grasp of the issues with others’ faiths. Many, not all. The more I learn, the less I see that Mormons are on especially treacherous grounding. Every faith is an interesting mix of aspirations and human foibles. Not one makes inherent sense without a leap of faith or surrender to some irrationality.

Kishkumen, I find I like and agree with the points you make here. I know of no religious group or formula which is a complete and stable thing. I think it is clear that all human religions have some family relationship. They have diversified and grown to meet new circumstances and understanding. I am not thinking of any original pure Adamic cult just the shared mix of aspirations and human foibles you make reference to. Well it is true I see a spiritual sense in all humans searching for clarification and growth. I find it interesting to note how the old Testament is a story of religious growth coming out of and built upon the cultural mix of preceding times. The Bible is certainly not clear about the process, in fact hides it to an extent, but telling pieces are there.

Christianity holds to some basics which were hard won agreements. Still there is change which happens all the centuries. All sorts of historical change create pressures upon forms of peoples religious beliefs and activities. That change is continuing now with some uncertainty as to how it will turn out. There is a division between liberal tendencies easily in danger of giving away the whole substance and on the other hand narrow tendencies which could suffocate.
I might look and see American Christianity on the edge of chaos. I am not the seer who knows how change will work this out.

[msnobody]

God's word is His word whether it is written, spoken or The Word Jesus Christ. Everything in the Bible points to Jesus Christ, The Word, as Messiah, not only in the New Testament, but also the Old Testament.

Most folks would gloss over what Jersey said something to the effect, it is in there [trinity], but one has to read it and study it. I bring this up because:

Ephesians 1:13, it states, "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Heb. 4:12 "for the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edge sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thought and intentions of the heart."

Again, Jersey's comment about reading and studying the book carries weight.

I've got to go, my lunch break is over.

Yes, well, all you are doing here to my eyes is quoting scripture as though its meaning were self-evidently in support of your position. I don’t see it that way. This may be why so many of these conversations are doomed to go nowhere. I appreciate the quoting of scripture, but I don’t see the connection between the scripture you quote and your preferred interpretations. I am just left to shrug and say: “OK, I guess that makes sense to you. Good for you.”

Fair enough.

[Jersey Girl]

Apparently you don't like context either. So be it.

I wasn’t ignoring context. I just had my own approach to the issue.

Then feel free to post your own approach to the issue without using my out of context comments as a vehicle. Have I ever done that to you? No, I have not.

[Kishkumen]

Then feel free to post your own approach to the issue without using my out of context comments as a vehicle. Have I ever done that to you? No, I have not.

Hey, I posted this thread. I thought my response to your statement was within the ballpark of the topic. Really I’m surprised that you are taking this as such an affront to good etiquette. I find it more oddly abrupt to tell someone that all that’s necessary to get the “Christian” point of view better is to just study the Bible harder.

I’m with Philo. I don’t see the Hypostatic Union of Deity springing from scripture. The term doesn’t even enter the discussion of the Incarnation until the 4th century AD.