Well, there are a few things - I'll share one of them with you.
I used to believe in a hell that could be described as eternal/conscious/torment (This being the dominate traditional western view/belief) - As a believer, this always gave me great pause and it significantly bothered me. What has changed is a relatively deep dive I did into early Christian leaders writings and teachings from the first few centuries. I found that there were three views/beliefs (all three having fairly equal scriptural support) and that these three views were basically excepted amongst the body of Christ (Christians) without need to divide.
These views/beliefs/teachings (In short) are: Eternal conscious torment (Dominate traditional view in the west today) - Annihilation (Destruction - cease to exist) - Reconciliation (Even after death, potential to be reconciled with our creator)
Anyway, that's one.
How about you? Have you changed/modified/transitioned any of your previously held stances?
Wait. What changed exactly? Like, you said the change was that you did a deep dive, but you didn’t indicate if you changed any old beliefs into new ones from said deep dive. I see that you ticked off some things you learned and that you were bothered by a previous theology you were taught, but I’m not seeing a specific stated change in your life, spirituality, or some other thing.
- Doc
Yeah - I probably could have been more clear. I will give it another try.
This didn't have much real impact on my life, spirituality or some other thing, it was a change concerning something I used to believe. Meaning, I used to believe that hell was a place where human beings spent their eternity being consciously tormented. Full stop. As I mentioned before, this gave me great pause and bothered me a lot. Now, I don't know which of the three views is correct - but the change rests in recognizing and believing that there are three views.
Yeah - I probably could have been more clear. I will give it another try.
This didn't have much real impact on my life, spirituality or some other thing, it was a change concerning something I used to believe. Meaning, I used to believe that hell was a place where human beings spent their eternity being consciously tormented. Full stop. As I mentioned before, this gave me great pause and bothered me a lot. Now, I don't know which of the three views is correct - but the change rests in recognizing and believing that there are three views.
I think I get what you are saying. You are considering differing interpretations of hell just as there are differing interpretations of The Revelation. I think I have a book on Revelation if you are interested. But let me flip through the book shelf and get back to you here.
Also, have you read about Golgotha much? If so, you can see the hell of fiery torment in those beliefs. There's something else, too. I'll have to look it up it's name escapes me at the moment. Some other Pagan thing if memory serves, which is apparently isn't serving me right now.
Heck.
WAIT. I remembered. The fires of Molech. The only thing is now I'm unsure of Golgotha and Molech refer to the same literal location.
Welcome to my world. There's another thing...Topeth? See I can't remember anything!
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF
What do you think would be the motivation for a deity to torture his creations for eternity?
- Doc
I don't know Doc. I do not know.
Full transparency: In my opinion, it goes further than motivation. To try to wrap my mind around this possibility (eternal conscious torment) is one of the most difficult, inhumane and challenging things (much more difficult than pain and suffering in my opinion) that I have ever had to contemplate as a Bible believing Christian. It's a horrifying idea and I struggle mightily every time I have to communicate about it.
So the book about the Revelation is called The Last Disciple written by Hank Hannegraff. I'm not so fond of the Hannegraff but as I recall I found the book interesting.
Last edited by Jersey Girl on Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF
Ceeboo this is also a good resource. I used to refer to it quite a lot. The Jewish Encyclopedia.
Here's Tophet.
TOPHET (, Isa. xxx. 33):
By: Emil G. Hirsch, Ira Maurice Price
Old Testament term used chiefly by Jeremiah (vii. 31, 32; xix. 6, 11, 12, 13, 14) and once in II Kings (xxiii. 10) to designate a place in one of the valleys just outside the walls of Jerusalem. The meaning of the word is much in dispute. W. Robertson Smith ("Rel. of Sem." p. 227, note) connects it with an Aramaic loan-word which means "fireplaces." The formation of the word is similar to that of "Molech" and "Ashtoreth." The passage in Kings locates the place in the valley of the son of Hinnom. Now there are three valleys in Jerusalem which converge just below the pool of Siloam: Kidron from the east side of the city; Wady al-Rababi from the southwest; and the Tyropœon extending from the Jaffa gate to Siloam. There is no consensus of opinion as to which of these valleys represents the ancient Tophet. There is, however, agreement that the convergence of the three valleys marks a part of Tophet. It is also very generally agreed that Tophet did not extend up the valley of the Kidron on the east side of Jerusalem. It is to be connected, then, either with the Tyropœon depression or, preferably, with the great valley marking the southwest border of the city.
Vaults of Arnheim and Zorkowski Families, Salem Fields Cemetery, New York.(From a photograph.)
Tophet as described especially in Jer. vii. 31, 32 was dedicated to the horrible rites of human sacrifice, of the immolation of children to Baal and other abominable idols. Josiah takes especial pains (II Kings xxiii. 10) to defile this despicable spot andthus to put a stop to the atrocious sacrifices of human life which had been made by at least two kings of Judah. Jeremiah's references to Tophet characterize it and at the same time specify that the punishment which threatens rebellious Judah shall so revolutionize and reverse current wrongs as to fill this valley with the corpses of those who shall be slain in the impending calamities. Tophet shall henceforth be called "the valley of slaughter" (Jer. vii. 32). After the overthrow of Jerusalem in 586 B.C., and down to New Testament times, incidental references to Tophet or Gehenna () indicate that it was a kind of perpetually burning rubbish-heap, where the refuse of Jerusalem was consumed.
Ceeboo read this as you have time. It's the Jewish Encyclopedia on Gehenna. Notice the descriptions. I think this is where the most common concept of Christian hell comes from. It's too striking not to notice it. Wow, maybe I actually remembered something after all. Sorry, it's been a long time since I've really thought about all this.
GEHENNA (Hebr. ; Greek, Γέεννα):
By: Kaufmann Kohler, Ludwig Blau
Table of Contents
Nature and Situation.
Judgment.
Sin and Merit.
Nature and Situation.
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.). The mouth is narrow, impeding the smoke, but below Gehenna extends indefinitely (Men. 99b). According to one opinion, it is above the firmament, and according to another, behind the dark mountains (Ta'an. 32b). An Arabian pointed out to a scholar the spot in the wilderness where the earth swallowed the sons of Korah (Num. xvi. 31-32), who descended into Gehenna (Sanh. 110b). It is situated deep down in the earth, and is immeasurably large. "The earth is one-sixtieth of the garden, the garden one-sixtieth of Eden [paradise], Eden one-sixtieth of Gehenna; hence the whole world is like a lid for Gehenna. Some say that Gehenna can not be measured" (Pes. 94a). It is divided into seven compartments (Soṭah 10b); a similar view was held by the Babylonians (Jeremias, "Hölle und Paradies bei den Babyloniern," pp. 16 et seq., Leipsic, 1901; Guthe, "Kurzes Bibel-wörterb." p. 272, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903).
Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Ḥag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6). Hell here is described exactly as in the Talmud. The Persians believed that glowing molten metal flowed under the feet of sinners (Schwally, "Das Leben nach Democrat Tode," p. 145, Giessen, 1892). The waters of the warm springs of Tiberias are heated while flowing past Gehenna (Shab. 39a). The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεῖς Ιστορίαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).
It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b). The souls of the sons of Korah were burned, and the angel-prince gnashed his teeth at them on account of their flattery of Korah (Sanh. 52a). Gehenna cries: "Give me the heretics and the sinful [Roman] power" ('Ab. Zarah 17a).
Judgment.
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a).
There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God ('Er. 19a). As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).
Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.)
The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).
Sin and Merit.
It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna (; 'Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Soṭah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a). Hell awaits one who indulges in unseemly speech (Shab. 33a; Enoch, xxvii.); who always follows the advice of his wife (B. M. 59a); who instructs an unworthy pupil (Ḥul. 133b); who turns away from the Torah (B. B. 79a; comp. Yoma 72b). For further details see 'Er. 18b, 101a; Sanh. 109b; Ḳid. 81a; Ned. 39b; B. M. 19a.
On the other hand, there are merits that preserve man from going to hell; e.g., philanthropy, fasting, visiting the sick, reading the Shema' and Hallel, and eating the three meals on the Sabbath (Giṭ. 7a; B. B. 10a; B. M. 85a; Ned. 40a; Ber. 15b; Pes. 118a; Shab. 118a). Israelites in general are less endangered (Ber. 10a) than heretics, or, according to B. B. 10a, than the heathen. Scholars (Ḥag. 27a; comp. Men. 99b and Yoma 87a), the poor, and the pious (Yeb. 102b) are especially protected. Three classes of men do not see the face of hell: those that live in penury, those suffering with intestinal catarrh, and those that are pressed by their creditors ('Er. 41b). It would seem that the expressions "doomed to hell" and "to be saved from hell" must be interpreted hyperbolically. A bad woman is compared to Gehenna in Yeb. 63b. On the names of Gehenna see 'Er. 19a; B. B. 79a; Sanh. 111b; et al.
Bibliography:
Winer, B. R. i. 491;
Hamburger, R. B. T. i. 527-530;
Hastings, Dict. Bible, ii. 343-346;
H. Guthe, Kurzes Bibelwörterb. pp. 271-274, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903;
G. Brecher, Das Transcendentale, etc. pp. 69-73, Vienna, 1850;
A. Hilgenfeld, Jüdische Apocalyptik, Index, Jena, 1857;
F. Weber, Jüdische Theologie, pp. 336 et seq.;
E. Stave, Der Einfluss des Parsismus auf das Judenthum, pp. 153-192 et seq., Haarlem, 1898;
James, Traditional Aspects of Hell, London, 1903.
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Yeah, you are close with what you said in your other post about considering different interpretation, like views of Revelation.
During my fairly deep dive into these three views of hell, the most helpful to me was information by Steve Greg - He has a daily radio call in show called The Narrow Path and a web site also called the Narrow Path (He also wrote a book titled- I think - "The three views of hell" - Anyway, he has lectures on his Narrow Path site that gave all three views, scripture verses that support each view and much more. I thought it was excellent and really informative. by the way, he doesn't suggest which view is correct, he just lays out the support for all three.
Anyway.........
Edited to add: Thanks for all the information Jersey Girl!
The fires of Molech. The only thing is now I'm unsure of Golgotha and Molech refer to the same literal location. 
