Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

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MG 2.0
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by MG 2.0 »

Shulem wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:51 pm
…Joseph Smith considered the Explanations of the Facsimiles to be inspired and given of God to the Church and to the whole world at large.
We have the facsimilies and we have the text of the Book of Abraham. I know that there is some correlation between the textual verses and the facsimilies.

A midrash, if I’m remembering correctly, can be a mix of what the author considers to be inspiration along with a human element of speculative theology. In my mind I can picture Joseph looking at this serialized project as being an ongoing midrash, of sorts.

Would you list your, say, top three recommendations/sources…first person primary…in Joseph’s words, where he as a matter of fact says that the PofGP and or the Book of Abraham were to be sources of scripture of the same caliber and importance as the other three scriptures that are referred to as Holy Scripture by the LDS church? I know what others around Joseph said and those that came after him, but I’m not nearly as interested in that as I am in what Joseph had to say.

The source I posted initially leads one to think the Book of Abraham project was just that. And wasn’t meant to evolve into what it later did.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Philo Sofee »

That's an interesting what if MG... as it appears to me, one problem we could encounter with this approach is how all Joseph's own contemporaries understood his involvement with the papyri, and their descriptions of it. It would make this entire enterprise a total fiasco, which, definitely mars the entire church (beginning with the prophet himself for not saying what he was doing - what, merely toying with the papyri?). Once again, we run into the problem of trusting anything the church ever does again if they let something of this magnitude just go on and on...what do you think?
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by MG 2.0 »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:43 pm
That's an interesting what if MG... as it appears to me, one problem we could encounter with this approach is how all Joseph's own contemporaries understood his involvement with the papyri, and their descriptions of it. It would make this entire enterprise a total fiasco, which, definitely mars the entire church (beginning with the prophet himself for not saying what he was doing - what, merely toying with the papyri?). Once again, we run into the problem of trusting anything the church ever does again if they let something of this magnitude just go on and on...what do you think?
One prophet’s midrashic composition might be another prophet’s revelation. I think the only sure way of looking at this issue and the possible solution I’m proposing, is to look solely at what Joseph said…and didn’t say.

The source I posted in my initial post upthread seems to point towards the fact(?) that Joseph’s intentions may have been different than his compatriots in the cause.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Philo Sofee »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:33 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:43 pm
That's an interesting what if MG... as it appears to me, one problem we could encounter with this approach is how all Joseph's own contemporaries understood his involvement with the papyri, and their descriptions of it. It would make this entire enterprise a total fiasco, which, definitely mars the entire church (beginning with the prophet himself for not saying what he was doing - what, merely toying with the papyri?). Once again, we run into the problem of trusting anything the church ever does again if they let something of this magnitude just go on and on...what do you think?
One prophet’s midrashic composition might be another prophet’s revelation. I think the only sure way of looking at this issue and the possible solution I’m proposing, is to look solely at what Joseph said…and didn’t say.

The source I posted in my initial post upthread seems to point towards the fact(?) that Joseph’s intentions may have been different than his compatriots in the cause.

Regards,
MG
I'm not so sure, based on what he told everyone around him about having Abraham's signature, and them all excited saying the Book of Abraham was going to be bigger than the Bible, etc. Only if we ignore what he said could we see him just playing around with midrashic ideas. He always translated scripture and received actual revelations. I mean, it's a try at getting rid of the problem, the only issue is Joseph Smith is your road block.
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Shulem »

MG, I must say, your first post has so much to unpack and it will take me a little time to gather my thoughts aside from what I’ve already expressed in my replies. Please bear with me. But I want to thank you for coming to the Celestial Forum to have a deep and profound conversation about the Book of Abraham. Let this be our safe place together where we can show mutual respect for one another. There is no interest on my part to make you look bad or feel bad. I can assure you that my intentions in the Celestial Forum are of the highest caliber, they are pure. If at anytime I make you feel uncomfortable or rub you wrong, please let me know and I’ll try and make things right. I want you to feel comfortable and also to be able to express yourself and make the points you so want to make. You have every right to make your point! Or you can leave at anytime and exit, no problem. The choice is yours.

You asked for references and citations. I have those, as you can reasonably assume. I will share what I know as it seems best. Please allow me to refer back to the earlier reference I cited in this thread about Smith making grandeur statements of his ability to represent the papyrus and mummies as truly ancient and on the order of being some 3,500 years old! That’s important because Smith was roughly dating the relics in his possession to that era and was not just feign claiming a guess but was invoking the very name of JESUS CHRIST and the authority of the priesthood vested in him as prophet, seer, and revelator. So, if you will permit me, I’d like to repost that reference because it provides an opening statement to the authority by which Joseph Smith was endorsing his Book of Abraham and was doing so under the divine auspice of God himself through the manifestation of the Holy Ghost.

JOSEPH SMITH wrote:
TIMES AND SEASONS
"Truth will prevail."
Vol. IV. No. 24.] CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. November 1, 1843. [Whole No. 84.

HISTORY OF JOSEPH SMITH.


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Now let me ask one for facts: was there ever such a place on the earth as Egypt? Geography says yes; ancient history says yes; and the Bible says yes . . .

Besides these tangible facts, so easily proven and demonstrated by simple rules of testimony unimpeached, the art (now lost) of embalming human bodies, and preserving them in the catacombs of Egypt, whereby men, women and children as mummies, after a lapse of near three thousand five hundred years, come forth among the living, and although dead, the papyrus which has lived in their bosoms, unharmed, speaks for them, in language like the sound of an earthquake: Ecce veritas! Ecce cadaveros. Behold the truth! Behold the mummies!


followed by:

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Joseph Smith states the above as diamond truth. The declaration of the truth of his statement is sealed by the power of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood and in the name of Jesus Christ and the sublime power of God. It is thus given as the word of God to the entire world to include Presidents and Emperors.

The mummies and the papyri are some 3,500 years old.

That *IS* the word of God. Amen.
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Philo Sofee »

Lets start another thread on this topic shall we? I think I am gonna dig being on the celestial with you guys, I can see some great discussions coming up!
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Philo Sofee »

And PG, thanks for that excellent missive on Newton, you say it so much better than I can. But I got the gist of it...
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:48 am
Lets start another thread on this topic shall we? I think I am gonna dig being on the celestial with you guys, I can see some great discussions coming up!

I’m fine with how things are going in the this thread as of right now and am willing to carry on as is. Jeff Lindsay hasn’t yet shown up and I can table his article for the time being. MG popped in and wants to discuss the Book of Abraham to include the validity of Smith’s original statements to that effect so I’ll just let it roll. But Philo, if you want to start another thread for a specific purpose then that is fine too.

Yes, the Celestial Forum is where the action is!

Welcome. Here we are all friends. Can I offer anyone a diet cola or 7 UP?
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:15 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:48 am
Lets start another thread on this topic shall we? I think I am gonna dig being on the celestial with you guys, I can see some great discussions coming up!

I’m fine with how things are going in the this thread as of right now and am willing to carry on as is. Jeff Lindsay hasn’t yet shown up and I can table his article for the time being. MG popped in and wants to discuss the Book of Abraham to include the validity of Smith’s original statements to that effect so I’ll just let it roll. But Philo, if you want to start another thread for a specific purpose then that is fine too.

Yes, the Celestial Forum is where the action is!

Welcome. Here we are all friends. Can I offer anyone a diet cola or 7 UP?
Hey I'm good with it here too. Uh, I'll have that diet cola please... may I also have a toasted muffin with butter and honey on it?
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:16 am
Hey I'm good with it here too. Uh, I'll have that diet cola please... may I also have a toasted muffin with butter and honey on it?
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